[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The context that Steadfast creates here is a discussion of how there are "issues" that are "almost pushing" the Tulsa men out. What are the men being "pushed out" from? A bowling league? No, the UPC. His concerns are very narrowly aimed at the UPC, though they would be just as alarming if they were aimed at any other Apostolic body.

When I read Steadfast's post, I never thought for a moment that he was referring to UPC churches when he gave the three specific examples: shacking up; questioning Jesus name baptism; and social drinking. Usually, when a UPC preacher uses the term "so called Apostolic churches," he is referring to ex-UPC congregations.

If these three points were used as part of his argument in favour of Tulsa, they form a pretty weak argument as I expect the incidents of such churches within the UPC would be so small as to be inconsequential.

This is the statement that until Steadfast cleared it up, everyone thought involved "homosexual" "shacking up." But sin is sin, so the accusation remains. Are there UPC churches allowing this kind of behavior?

Like I said before, I obviously can't know everything about every church everywhere, but does this characterize the UPC in Texas?

I find it strange that anybody got "homosexual" from "shacking up." I have never heard the term "shacking up" applied to homosexuals. The term is generally applied to people living together without the benefit of a marriage covenant, and marriage for homosexuals is a relatively new practice.

Maple Leaf, do you really believe that right now there is a UPC pastor in Texas who openly allows a woman from Steadfast's church to minister on the platform with full knowledge that she is "shacking up with young men?" That was the implication of Steadfast's charge. When pressed about it, he did clarify the sexual orientation involved, but his accusation still stands.

I asked if there weren't "complexities" involved that might help us to understand the situation as being something else. Are we dealing with a rogue Jezebel on the loose in the Texas District? Does this "Jezebel" have the actual support of at least one UPC pastor as Steadfast has charged?

Again, in the post that I quoted, Steadfast did not say that the pastor was UPC or from Texas; neither did he say that she was ministering on the platform.

Steadfast said that she shacked up without backsliding. You've made the jump from there to Jezebel having the support of a UPC pastor. I think that it is more likely that she was sitting on the pew, claiming salvation, unrebuked - a totally different matter than ministering on the platform.

I have risen and said, "No." And for that Steadfast has said that I "lack integrity." I'm willing to submit the whole matter, with these posts for arbitration to the Steadfast's District board.

Better still, I humbly submit the matter to Brother Steadfast's own conscience.

Now, that's a matter entirely between you and Steadfast.