Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkoa
TK,
I believe:
Also,
And I believe other things, too, about these scriptures, but I am trying to narrow down some of the questions I have, to see if we have any common ground...
I know I still need to address some of the points you brought up, I am working on it...
Mark
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Since this thread was started about missing the rapture (?) let me throw in what I have been studing in the last couple of weeks.
9/29/2009
The second comming of the Lord
The Rapture
The Resurection
This subject has been the topic for discution for centerys. Even in the OT men debated whether there was a resurection of the dead or not.
Jesus pretty much put the resurection question to rest when he said "I am the resurection".
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now the resurrection as seen in these verses deals with two realms, one who has died and the living.
Lazarus had died, he had been buried and in the tomb for four days. Now I have found that we cannot always take the exact wording and base a understanding on it but we must back it up with other examples found in the bible and even history if we can find it. But back to the passage, when Jesus came even when he was aways off Martha went out to meet him.
Note the first thing that was dealt with was whether Lazarus would have died at all if Jesus would have come sooner. Oh the thoughts that are going thru my mind when I think about how we Christians blame God when things go wrong. God if you would have done this when I ask such and such would not have happened. Oh well I will have to come back to that at another time.
Jesus reply to Martha was Lazarus shall rise agian. Her response was I know he will rise agian in the resurrection. This does let us know that there was comming a resurrection where the dead would rise to live eternaly with God. Jesus confirmes this in his teachings that the dead would rise.
Special note should be taken on Jesus answer to Martha, I am the resurrection and the life. Jesus deals with the dead that believe that shall live. Jesus does not stop there though, he continues to say whosoever that liveth and believes shall never die.
Here is where the argument comes into play. When does this happen? Most christians see this as a comming event yet to come. because of Pauls teachings.
I Thess. 4:14-17,
I Corinthians 15:51-52. Many have taken these passages to say and speak of a rapture to come as if the resurrection has not already happened. But in both of these passages the only thing I can truely see that happens is the dead in Christ shall be raised incoruptable. Remmember Jesus said whosoever beleives shall never die. So how does that work? We say we still die because this body dies. But Jesus said Lazarus was not dead he just slept. See we are wrapped up in this body but this is just our tabernacle we dwell in for a time on earth. Paul deals with this in I Corin. 15, we can argue the words soul, and spirit but the fact remains we are still an eternal being. But and I say BUT with capital letters our bodies of flesh and blood are not and never will be eternal. Even the writter of OT understood this.
Ecc. 3:20,
Ecc. 12:7
I remmember as a child seeing pictures of graves being opened at the rapture. and bodies of living souls flying in the air. This will not happen when we die our bodies that are buried will go into the ground and return to the dust from which God used to created us with. Therefore what will rise from death in the resurection will be that part of us that is eternal. This is the basis of most of the disagrement with one way of thinking over the other. Most Christians look for a raiseing of our dead bodies from the grave as Lazarus, this I don't beleive is what will happen.
So here is the way I see it, one of two things happen. All those that were dead OT saints when Christ rose on the third day were raised and are now in heaven. When we die our soul emmediatly goes to heaven and we are given a new body. In this way the dead rose first and then we which are alive and remain are caught up when this life is over to meet them in the air to forever be with the Lord. Or as is taught by most Christians there will come a time when Christ will call us home, then the dead will rise first then we shall be caught up.
I am personaly leaning towards the idea that the OT saints were raised when Christ rose. And that when we die we go straight to be with the Lord. The resurrection as has been defined by most Christians is not as scripture shows it. First Jesus said "I am the resurrection and life" As long as God is working in the world thru Christ the resurrection is not past. How else can you explain Christ words in
John 11:26, he that beleiveth in me shall never die. Does this mean this body will not die? No this body will die but the eternal part of man will live on with Christ.