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Old 05-21-2019, 11:54 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Timing of Corneliusí Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Brother, thatís definitely an interesting point.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that you are justified the moment you believe, however you are also saying that repentance is necessary for justification, correct? Or are you justified the moment you believe even if you haven't repented yet? Could you please clarify this point in the context of the verses you are posting?
I don't think belief/faith can be separated from repentance. In common Protestant theology, at least, faith and repentance are considered the two distinguishable though inseparable aspects of conversion, faith being the positive aspect of turning toward Christ and repentance being the negative aspect of turning away from sin. This makes sense to me. When I hear the promise of salvation through Christ, if I truly accept it, I will do both. So, someone is justified when they have faith in Christ and repent. It is illogical to suggest that someone could turn to Christ in faith for salvation while refusing to repent and turn from the sin he needs salvation from.

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You are also saying that if you are justified but you donít show obedience to the faith afterward you can ďloseĒ your justification? Or that if you donít obey you didnít have the kind of faith that justify to begin with?
The faith that justifies is the faith that obeys. If I preached the gospel and someone said that he or she had accepted the promise but refused to be baptized, I would not accept that they had justifying faith or had repented to begin with. That is different from someone who truly has faith and repents but is not immediately led by believers to baptism. It apparently is possible to be justified without the sign and seal of justification, as Abraham experienced before he received circumcision. Of course, once the command came, since he had true faith, he obeyed. If he had not, that would have shown he had lost his faith. I have mentioned my own history. It should never have happened that no one taught me to be baptized for 6 months. Do I think I was not justified because I had not been baptized yet? Definitely not. Once I finally was taught it and asked if I wanted to be baptized, I immediately said yes, because I did have justifying faith.

The problems and debates arise in part because we don't just follow the order of Acts 2:38.

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Also, you are saying that being justified equals to being saved, or that it is part of being saved?
Justification is an aspect of our saving experience in Christ. It's a judicial declaration by God that we are forgiven and declared righteous and that Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us. It's distinguishable but inseparable from regeneration and adoption. This of course means that I think there is a saving experience of the Spirit apart from the baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs at faith and repentance. Again in practice, all this would be occurring in close connection with baptism, which is why, I think, that the a saving work of the Spirit is associated with baptism in texts like Romans 6 and Colossians 2.

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Whenever I ask questions I may not have a specific point, Iím just testing you propositions and see how you explain them or build better ones. If you propositions are solid then your reasoning can be valid if your logic is correct.
Makes sense.

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I can explain the argument you present about the flaw of the OP traditional view of being filled with the Spirit and you sins not forgiven yetĒ part, and hopefully I do it well, but first I would like to hear the answer to the previous questions.
Thank you.
I look forward to reading it. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.
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