My Response to "The Devolution of Government - Globally & in the Church" by the NCO

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Posted yesterday on the New Church Order website

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The Devolution of Government- Globally & in the Church
by James Griffin, ESQ

http://www.newchurchorder.com/content/view/83/45/

One principle long recognized in the Church is that movements in governments and principalities often reflect what is happening in the spirit-world and vice versa. Also as pointed out in a previous article in this forum sometimes a new phenomenon will give raise to a new vernacular. The term “devolution” is one currently making the rounds among social scientists and economists. It is used to describe a globally impacting trend currently epicentered in Europe but spreading.

Devolution is the break down of strong federal government in favor of regional, cultural, and economic units. Examples include the breakup of the USSR into Russia and several satellite countries. This directly resulted in the explosion of Yugoslavia into approximately six (and counting) countries. No industrialized country is immune including such powerhouses as United Kingdom, France, Spain, Italy, and even Germany. There are currently no less than 18 such hot spots in Europe and new countries are splintering also on the continents of Africa and Asia.

However, how does this apply to the Church? Even as this article is being composed, one of the premier “church” organizations in the world is locked in such debate. The divisive question is not over the plan of salvation, but what means of technology is “holy enough” to be used to disseminate the gospel! Proponents from both sides have publicly stated that no matter what the vote on the resolution they intend on withdrawing from fellowship and go independent.

Such mentality is foreign to Scripture. Has not the fragmentation and infighting among religious bodies and church organizations gone on long enough? Is it not time to concentrate on our commonality instead? How does refusing to fellowship over such matters (by either side) fit into agape? How much more could be done for the kingdom with the blending of our talents and gifts?

No one would deny any denomination has an absolute right to delineate its standards, and seek to uphold them within their organization. However, to deny fellowship with believers over such matters smacks of elitism at best, and is pharisaical legalism at worst.

It is also understandable that those caught in the crossfire of such infighting would desire to be totally independent. But those brethren so wounded might want to recall the history of our own country. When the colonials successfully overcame what they perceived to be a tyrannical government, they immediately formed an alternative. They realized that non-governance equates to anarchy.

The New Testament clearly recognizes strong governance within the church body. This should of course be centered in the five-fold ministry. It is beyond the scope of this article to go into how such a unified governing body should be set up, but we should hope that at the least, men and women everywhere would start the necessary dialogue.

Brother Griffin,

The article is definitely very well written.

I agree with your assessment that "devolution" is occuring, but let me give you a different take on the phenomenon, and why I think it is happening. I will attempt to use the same lingo you used in the article from NCO.

It is my opinion that devolution is not always negative. Sometimes fragmentation occurs due to irreconcilable differences arising when leaders of a centralized social or religious group enact ordinances that smack of oppressive tyranny. Men and women will always seek personal liberty which, of course, leads to many splinter groups breaking off from the original religious, political, or social power.

I do not believe it was ever God's plan to have a Vatican type model of church government. I do not believe it was ever God's plan to have a centralized seat of Christian power on earth that was led by a man, or group of men.

Instead, I believe that God scattered (through Roman persecution) early Christians to the four corners of the earth to combat such a religious system. We men are great at messing up the simplicity of God's plan. We ministers tend to want to be mediators between God and man, when He really doesn't need our help. All he wants us to do is "go" and "preach."

I believe what you are hoping for is ecumenicalism. It is clear the NCO is willing to set aside every bit of core doctrine for some misguided sense of Christian unity. I can't for a moment believe that God is pleased.

Further, you seem to play off of the UPC's current fragmentation, mentioning it on the front page of your website. What is your goal in doing so? Why does the NCO need to slap at us? This is contrary to the spirit of your article, in which you state a desire for unity and ecumenicalism.

I feel your article, and past blogs on the NCO site, is in poor taste, and not befitting model Christian motives. After all, isn't the NCO a splinter group?

[Nahum]

No comment?

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

No comment?

Apparently your editing caused the response to crash as it was being posted, I will retype.

[James Griffin]

RESPONSE TO PASTOR POSTER



"""I believe what you are hoping for is ecumenicalism. It is clear the NCO is willing to set aside every bit of core doctrine for some misguided sense of Christian unity. I can't for a moment believe that God is pleased.

Further, you seem to play off of the UPC's current fragmentation.. What is your goal in doing so? Why does the NCO need to slap at us? This is contrary to the spirit of your article, in which you state a desire for unity and ecumenicalism.

I feel your article, and past blogs on the NCO site, is in poor taste, and not befitting model Christian motives. After all, isn't the NCO a splinter group?””””

PP, I usually find your posts to be well reasoned, respectful, and something I can give a hardy amen to as well. However, I must say in this case I am confused by your posting both as to content and tone. Why do you equate a call to unity as a call to "ecumenicalism"? If so then we may well have to revise opinions of some of the august leaders of the UPC that have made similar calls in times past.

There is nowhere anything I have ever written in public nor said in private that is even remotely anti-UPC. Even the posts I have made in here have been emphatically and prayerfully made that NO ONE from EITHER SIDE of the Resolution 4 issue leave the UPC!!! To do so would be a tragedy of the highest order. Apostolic ministers threatening to “disfellowship” over personal standards? Once again regardless of which side of the desire to evangelize by means of Television that one is on, it is still personal conviction, and that should not be a basis to breaking fellowship. (Even Paul and James when in disagreement over whether rites of Judaism should be kept post-conversion never suggested doing such.) While certain ministers feel they must make a statement by starting their own organizations,it may be regrettable but understandable if there is an image they wish to maintain. But to refuse fellowship outside their clique??

No one should be ridiculed for desiring to maintain high standards; on the other hand those with these extra-Biblical convictions should not be elitist and exclusionary in attitude. They can and should hold their personal convictions as standards within their local assemblies.

For example, I personally believe that television is for the most part evil. Watching it usually promotes immorality, destabilizes the family, and studies have even proven it to increase violence, ADD, and even obesity. However, for me to refuse to fellowship a fellow One God, Apostolic, tongue talking, Jesus Name baptized believer over it???

The Bible strongly promotes unity- if two or three agree- a three fold cord is not easily broken,-one can put a thousand to flight two can put 10,000. We should be able to celebrate our diversity of talents and gifting without sacrificing the personal convictions of the local assembly.



As far as the underlying tone both in your post and several I have seen in this forum that the NCO is being proposed as an alternative to the UPC (or any denomination), shows an unfortunate understanding of both its purpose and structure.

The NCO is not now, nor ever shall be a denomination or organization of anything of that ilk. Any minister disgruntled with their organization and seeking to join solely for that reason will be disappointed. It is simply a fellowship seeking the free exchange of ideas and concepts on how further the kingdom. Nothing more nothing less. We have minister members from a plethora of denominations including UPC.

As such, to call the NCO “a splinter group” once again shows an unfortunate misunderstanding as to its content and structure, both philosophically and in membership. Future projects include seminars ranging from local church government, to legal issues, to integrating technology into evangelism. For example we already have ACT29TV.COM broadcasting Apostolic messages over the internet 24/7

The entire thrust of the article was to promote unity within all of Christendom regardless of denomination. On a personal level I pray the United Pentecostal Church remains United.

While maintaining I have never written anything “anti-UPC”, I do sincerely apologize to anyone offended by promoting the concept “they shall know you are Christians by your love one to another” and promoting unity among the brethren.

[Nahum]

Brother Griffin,

Though I only have been exposed to your posts for a few weeks now, I have formed an opinion that you are a good man, and an excellent writer.

Sir, the thing that disturbs me is that on one hand you call for unity, but on the other the site that you administer has decided to post blogs that seem to gouge at an open wound in the flesh of the UPC.

The article by Brother Saulters is an unfortunate blend of elitism and liberty gone amuck. Further, to use the current fractured political climate within the UPC as a reference point in your blog shows a lack of decorum and civility.

The UPC is not perfect, but men like me have given almost our entire lives nurturing it's values and distinctives - especially fundamental doctrine.

The articles by Saulters and Langston seem to be NCO's version of a trophy case. I find this distasteful and tacky.

If the NCO is to flourish, it needs to do so on the basis of what it has to offer - not what the UPC supposedly doesn't.

[CC1]

PP,

I am also surprised at you calling the NCO a "splinter group" as you full well know it is only an association of Oneness folks and not a replacement for any ogranizational membership any Preacher may have.

The NCO has never presented itself as an "alternative" to the UPC, ALJC, or any other Oneness organization but rather as an umbrella association of fellowship that should transcend the different organizations.

You may have legitimate gripes with the NCO but I thought that part of your post was unfair and a mischaracterization. That is not typical of you.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by CC1

PP,

I am also surprised at you calling the NCO a "splinter group" as you full well know it is only an association of Oneness folks and not a replacement for any ogranizational membership any Preacher may have.

The NCO has never presented itself as an "alternative" to the UPC, ALJC, or any other Oneness organization but rather as an umbrella association of fellowship that should transcend the different organizations.

You may have legitimate gripes with the NCO but I thought that part of your post was unfair and a mischaracterization. That is not typical of you.

CC1, this ruffles my feathers Friend.

This "affiliation" has allowed inflammatory blogs on its site. Saulters and Langston body slam the UPC. I have verifiable disagreements with some items in the org, but it is tacky for the NCO to allow that garbage on their site.

What is the purpose of those posts? Why would Brother Griffin and others allow that language to stand? To me, it appears as if the NCO is positioning itself as more than just an "affiliation."

[Nahum]

This article is aptly titled "A Place for You!" It's from the NCO site. Why the title, and why is it necessary to post this on a site that is not trying to compete with the UPC? The article is written by Ricky Saulters

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For the past fourteen years, I have shared a burden with many whom I consider to be my "Spiritual Brothers" and that burden is to take “The Whole Gospel to The Whole World”. Through many concerted efforts I have enjoyed wonderful occasions of fellowship, and as these relationships formed through fellowship, I was brought together with like-minded men and women in mutually exclusive causes for the Kingdom’s sake. During the seven years I was privileged to travel as an Evangelist, I discovered many noble men of integrity and character who displayed a love for righteousness and truth.

In October of last year, after many months of seeking God’s direction for my life and ministry, the Lord gave me specific instructions regarding the steps that He had ordered for me. As a result, I formally submitted my resignation and immediate withdrawal from an organized religious system which attempts to manipulate and control, rather than release and empower.
My resignation was not over a doctrinal difference nor was it enveloped in personal grievance. As I did then, I do now affirm Biblical doctrine, apostolic witness, and sanctity of lifestyle. I was, I am, and I shall continue to be an Apostolic preacher! There are no personal animosities held and no perfunctory disputes ongoing. I had no desire then, nor do I now, to cause any undue conflict within the organizational system that I was affiliated with and it has never been my intention to influence anyone to pursue the path I am compelled to follow.

My decision to withdraw my membership was for me, one of character. I had agreed, when extended the privilege of fellowship within this particular organizational structure, to adhere to, stand for, and follow ALL of its bylaws. I also agreed to not be personally involved in anything that might be perceived as causing disunity or division within the body of this ministry group that I was in covenant with.

However, as you know, in time we find ourselves evolving and maturing and as a result, careful examination of the methods once ascribed to becomes necessary for continued growth. It is in this process that we discover great value and liberation in many things and yet, it is here that we also realize the insignificance, restrictive nature and smallness of others. Of course, in the context of this process our bounds must be firmly set within Biblical doctrine and mandates. In my case, the chaff that came from this time of threshing was only relegated to areas of so called “personal conscience” issues and the resulting culture of legalism that is created when the by-laws and judgments of men are elevated to a superior position over God’s.

I have found that legalism is an oft misunderstood term that is used loosely to support a myriad of actions, most of which are borne out of the carnal mind. So, for me, legalism is not:

The formatting of rules, the creating of guidelines nor the application of certain standards.

[Nahum]

It was in my searching that God led me to such a place where God reigns and men are empowered and also released, without the fear of someone’s ministry surpassing another, to be whatever God has placed in their hearts to become. It is a place where everyone has a recognizable gift and their contribution to Kingdom work is considered. Although each call is not equal, every called out one is relevant to the entire cause. For example, It may be the exuberant, animated ministry of the preached word through an Evangelist, the pedantic and didactic instruction of a Pastor, the motivating and pleasurable atmosphere that a Psalmist creates through his/her music, or the eloquent and articulate penmanship that a Wordsmith may write with ... in this place everyone is encouraged to invest themselves in fulfilling the mission of Jesus Christ.

That place is the New Church Order. It is here that I have found true Apostolic Government in Dr. Wendell Hutchins II, and an Accurate and Anointed Prophetic Voice in Prophet Jonathan Suber. Although these men are but mere reflections of many others, who like I, have chosen to follow God at the expense of all else, I have become connected with many others who felt so all alone on the journey to advance the Kingdom of God. Are you tired of traditionalism and dead religion? Are you ready to move forward and grasp the contents of a fresh move of the Spirit? Are you thru performing for people? Are you weary with trying to fit in the mold others have created for you? If so, there is a place for you. That place is the New Church Order. Let me be the first to say, “Welcome to the Revolution!”

[Nahum]

CC1, what does that article say to you?

To me, it is an invitation to leave the UPC and join the NCO.

How can we conclude anything else?