John Ankerberg Show

[Sam]

Years back, then General Superintendent Nathaniel Urshan, along with Robert Sabin, appeared on the John Ankerberg Show. On the Trinitarian side appeared Walter Martin and Calvin Beisner.

These shows are available on Google video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...27547059973965

is Part One.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75095983771949

is Part Two.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...99455619031597

is Part Three.

[Hoovie]

I am interested to know if Bro Sabin has commented on this show in the last decade or so.

[CC1]

Sam I Am,

Thanks for posting the links. I never got to see the entire thing. I have heard a lot about it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I am interested to know if Bro Sabin has commented on this show in the last decade or so.

He commented on them when they were first done.

He said they were heavily edited in favor of the Trinitarians.

Of all 4 participants WM had the majority time to speak

It was a Q&A style of debate where the moderator (JA) would post a verse and ask for discussion on it. Each verse was a Trinitarian proof text. So OPs were not really allowed to mount a counter argument against the Trinity.

RS says that CB was "caught"....Walter Martin made a statement to the effect that they both agreed that Eternal Son was an erroneous term and that they held to the view of WM that the Son was just the Logos for eternity and became the Son. CB, however, contradicted that viewpoint half way through the debate.

RS says the show was actually a lot longer than what appeared in the final cut released to the public..

BTW in later debates with CRI they made very clear stipulations regarding recording and video that allowed RS and his ministries full rights to the entire recorded content and that whatever CRI put out could not be edited

[Michael The Disciple]

The first debate showed error on both sides. The UPC understanding of the LOGOS fell flat as it always does. The Trins would not even comment on Isaiah 44:24 where YHWH says he created all things alone and by himself.

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 2 highlight.

The President of the UPC declares Trinitarians are Christians!

The Trins ignore Isaiah 9:6. Trins take it on the chin concerning Jesus saying the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. They OP's ask did Christ de deify himself?

[Praxeas]

Calvin Beisner, agrees that not being baptized is a sin. I wonder how many protestants would agree with that

[Praxeas]

WM also underscores a point I made about the preposition "pros" where WM claims it means "with, as in a face to face relationship" implying two faces/two persons. But pros can mean within or even "pertaining to" in the accusative.

Then Ankerberg brings up the Logos being called "him"...again to imply a person. But if that is the case the greek grammar means nothing. John had to use a masculine pronoun in greek. He had to. It was not about making the Logos another person with God. Masculine nouns (logos is masculine) must have a masculine pronoun

Then WM asserts again, the text says 'face to face with God' and then asserts the masculine pronoun is "person"

[Praxeas]

Then WM in the first debate asserts there is no Eternal Son. That is a heresy from Origin and that they both (meaning Calvin B) agree on this point

[Michael The Disciple]

Its getting hard to watch this. The 6 rules of Granville Sharp seem more important than scripture. True it is stacked heavily in favor of the Trins. The Oneness are definitely sqeezed into a small defensive box.

Beisner lives off Lexicons and other mens writings it would seem. So far what I have seen vindicates that classic Trinitarianism teaches 3 Gods. They do not use THOSE WORDS but that IS the end result.