"resurrection"

[mfblume]

I asked this in the fellowship section where everything under the sun is discussed, and felt to move it here so we can dig deeper into the issue from the folks who usually post here who enjoy going deeper with an issue.

Originally Posted by STRONG'S LEXICON

RESURRECTION G386
ἀνάστασις
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): -translated in the KJV as raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

When it comes to RESURRECTION, if something did not have to live at one time, and then die to exist without life, and then live a second time in order to be "resurrected", then the doctrine of full preterism (fp) teaching is not against a resurrection of the church.

My hesitance with FP "resurrection" is as follows. "Resurrection" means to come to life again. It teaches that there is a "resurrection" when a saint dies since the date of AD70. If I died today and was saved, it teaches my spirit and soul leave the physical body. It teaches my physical body will never live again, but turn to dust and be gone forever. In fact, it is claimed I will never again have a physical body ever.

Not only that, but Fp teaches that an invisible and non-physical body is obtained at the moment of our deaths. It did not live before and died, only to come to life again. So it did not "resurrect". Some claim it came out of the physical body like a plant comes out of a seed shell when the seed is germinated.

Now, if I died today, my physical body is the only thing that dies between the time of natural life and after-life (for lack of a better term). The soul and spirit continues to live whether the body dies or not. Neither of the soul and spirit die, necessitating them to be resurged with life again.

So, if the soul and spirit continue living when the body dies, what comes back to life? What resurrects?

The person? The person's body died, but the physical body is not said to ever be an issue again in FP.

So, why is the word, resurrection, defined as "to COME BACK TO LIFE AGAIN" used according to full preterism? The soul and spirit did not die when the physical body died, necessitating them to come to life again. Only the physical brain died.

The moment when the FP "resurrection" occurs, they claim, is when we physically die and leave our physical bodies. The soul and spirit do not stop living but pass through this experience without having to come to life again. They never stopped living. So how is there a resurrection when the body dies to never again be given life, and the soul and spirit do not die anyway, but continue to go on and be with the Lord? If the body were to be revived, then i can see resurrection. Something has come to life again. But since the soul and spirit do not come to life again, because they continued on through death in a very living state all the while, what is it that is "back from the dead"? What is it that "comes to life again"? Does the Greek term used for resurrection NOT MEAN back to life again? It would have to not mean that in order for fp's to claim there is a "resurrection" in view when we die and experience what they claim we experience.

The soul and spirit leaves a body as soon as it physically dies. They are not carried into the grave when the body is dead, three days after death, and then leave the body. They go straight to glory as soon as the body dies. "How is that a resurrection?"

Jesus Christ's body died and stayed dead for three days. Did His human soul and His Spirit die and stay in the grave for three days? Where was His SON OF GOD consciousness? Sleeping? We know the BODY alone died. And Jesus resurrected when that body came to life again. His human soul and His Spirit did not die to be made alive again when the third day arrived. So, we see a resurrection in Jesus.

And if there is no SOUL SLEEP NOW, whereas there allegedly was before AD70 in FP teaching, our souls and spirits leave the body when it dies, and do not pause in any manner to sleep or die in any form. They carry on. The old chorus goes, "We do not die, we just move on high, to live with Christ the king." We leave our mortal bodies, when they die, and carry on very much alive in spirit and soul. SO how does "come back to life", the definition of "resurrection", fit according to fp?

[Scott Hutchinson]

John saw one that sitteth on the throne,so if Christ did not have a visible body form what did John see,now if we are to have a body like His,how can we not have a immortal body that is also physical or visible in our resurrected state ?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

John saw one that sitteth on the throne,so if Christ did not have a visible body form what did John see,now if we are to have a body like His,how can we not have a immortal body that is also physical or visible in our resurrected state ?

Bro. Scott, you forgot verse 3. That verse tells what Jesus looked like.

Rev 4:2-3
(2) At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
(3) And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald.

So is THIS what you believe Jesus looked like while on earth?

Bro. Scott, this is not about whether Jesus had an “appearance,” but whether that appearance was a physical flesh and bone body. Can you give any passages that describe Jesus' post-ascension appearance looking like the physical man He was while on earth? So far no one has given any such evidence though it has been asked….

Bro. Scott, John saw prophetic imagery, not a flesh and bone 33.5 year old Jewish man.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Ok perhaps that wasn't the best example to use,but doesn't the scripture say that if the dead rise not,then is not Christ raised ?
Does the spirit of a believer ever die ? So something must be raised ?
I'm asking this in sincerity,but when was the body of Christ that was raised changed from a physical to a ethreal invisible body ?
I don't have all of the answers,but I'm willing to listen.

[shag]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Bro. Scott, you forgot verse 3. That verse tells what Jesus looked like.

Rev 4:2-3
(2) At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
(3) And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald.

So is THIS what you believe Jesus looked like while on earth?

Bro. Scott, this is not about whether Jesus had an “appearance,” but whether that appearance was a physical flesh and bone body. Can you give any passages that describe Jesus' post-ascension appearance looking like the physical man He was while on earth? So far no one has given any such evidence though it has been asked….

Bro. Scott, John saw prophetic imagery, not a flesh and bone 33.5 year old Jewish man.

TK brother,

U have a 33 1/2 year old flesh and bone jewish man that resurrected with the same mortal body that he died with. He ascended to heaven with that same mortal body. But yet per your own argument, He could have never made to heaven even tho the scripture says he did, because it also says that "flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom. Thats a dilemna isn't it? A mortal bodied resurrected Saviour. Dont know what happened to the mortal INCORRUPTABLE body. Its not in heaven cause it cant get there being flesh. Its surely not been floating around up there for 2000+ years. Dont know if it died again, since it was raised mortal. How in the world can that one be untangled?


If disciples also thought He was raised and ascended mortal, would they not look for the SAME mortal Jesus to return?



IMHO, tho I could be wrong, that only leaves one untangling option. He resurrected with a "spiritual body"(per scripture), of which can be made physically seen when He desires it to be seen(per scripture). A body that was raised incorruptable (per scripture) and ascended into heaven (per scripture). Similiarly, our resurrected bodies will be "as of" the angels (per scripture Matt. 22:30)
Immortal, invisible and made visible, incorruptable, physical & spiritual, glorious.


What's your take on "appearance the jasper and carnelian? Describing in imagery the Son of God pre last ascension, or something else?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is something to consider and perhaps someone has the answer if a resurrected body is a invisible ethreal body then what is heaven just a invisble place in the atmosphere ?

[shag]

I dunno what "ethreal" is, but I think heaven is an "invisible dimension" all around and above us, but I dont have jack didley in scripture to support it off hand, LOL

lightsout for me,
Lord Bless ya brehtren.

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.dictionary.net/ethereal

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shag

TK brother,

U have a 33 1/2 year old flesh and bone jewish man that resurrected with the same mortal body that he died with. He ascended to heaven with that same mortal body. But yet per your own argument, He could have never made to heaven even tho the scripture says he did, because it also says that "flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom. Thats a dilemna isn't it? A mortal bodied resurrected Saviour. Dont know what happened to the mortal INCORRUPTABLE body. Its not in heaven cause it cant get there being flesh. Its surely not been floating around up there for 2000+ years. Dont know if it died again, since it was raised mortal. How in the world can that one be untangled?

Shag,

Our good FP brethren believe that after Jesus ascended with the "mortal" physical body, He abandoned it somehow. So, He supposedly no longer has that body now. But what happened after that is not clear, for they have not shared that with us, if they even thought of what happened yet. Either that physical body was exchanged after He ascended for an invisible, non-physical, spiritual body that we're supposed to get when we die, or else He simply has no SPIRITUAL BODY other than the church. For they argued that the Church is the only BODY Jesus now has.

So it would be interesting for them to tell us whether or not Jesus got His own invisible, Spiritual body after He ascended -- like we are supposed to get when we die -- or has no personal body at all now.

However, if the church is the ONLY BODY of Christ, as they argued when we said He still has a personal body, then He cannot have a personal SPIRITUAL non-physical body. Whether non-physical or not, A body is a body. And if He cannot have a personal body now since the church is His body, then that means he cannot have a non-physical body, that they claim we shall get when we die, either. Is that their case?

Actually it is confusing metaphors with reality to say Jesus cannot have a personal body if the church is called His body now. A husband and wife both have personal bodies, while the woman is called the body of the husband, as in Eph 5 in Christ and the church's case, and Gen 2 with Adam and Eve's case.

BTW, our good FP brother, Revelationist, told me he believes that Jesus' body was immortal and spiritual both before and after the resurrection. Although immortal means you cannot die, Rev. stated that he believes Jesus laid down His life, or else they could not kill Him, which is supposed to mean Jesus had an immortal body before He died.

Meanwhile, our other good FP brother, Bro Burk, said Jesus had a mortal body before and after the resurrection until His final ascension.

Notice, Shag, Bro Burk already said he felt Jesus had a mortal body before and after the resurrection UNTIL THE FINAL ASCENSION.

And we already had a couple of people, including myself, say that Paul saw the same Jesus physically just as the others saw Him before His ascension, according to Paul's inclusion of himself with those people at the start of 1 Cor 15. Whether Paul saw a light or not does not matter, because Jesus' face shone like the sun in Matt 17 and that was a physical face. Paul still saw something PHYSICAL, whether or not anyone else there did. You cannot see a non-physical invisible body in any way! Invisible means you cannot see it. How did Paul see something you cannot see?

Anyhow, can anyone answer my initial post?

[Parson]

Hi Bro Blume

Our good FP brethren believe that after Jesus ascended with the "mortal" physical body, He abandoned it somehow.

How one defines words has been the major bone of contention on most theology differences.

To be accurate, one must use the historical-grammatical approach that you used with the Greek word anastasis.

But to my point.

I understand that the FP brethren believe that Jesus ascended with his freshly resurrected MORTAL PHYSICAL BODY, that He was forced to abandon it somehow before He was ALLOWED to enter into the heavenly realm.

By default, THE MORTAL BODY HAD TO DIE A SECOND TIME.

MOR'TAL, a. [L. mortalis, from mors, death, or morior, to die, that is, to fall.]

1. Subject to death; destined to die. Man is mortal.

2. Deadly; destructive to life; causing death, or that must cause death; as a mortal wound; mortal poison.

The fruit

Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste

Brought death into the world, and all our woe--

3. Bringing death; terminating life.

Safe in the hand of one disposing power,

Or in the natal or the mortal hour.

4. Deadly in malice or purpose; as a mortal foe. In colloquial language, a mortal foe is an inveterate foe.

5. Exposing to certain death; incurring the penalty of death; condemned to be punished with death; not venial; as a mortal sin.

6. Human; belonging to man who is mortal; as mortal wit or knowledge; mortal power.

The voice of God

To mortal ear is dreadful.

7. Extreme; violent. [Not elegant.]

The nymph grew pale, and in a mortal fright--

MOR'TAL, n. Man; a being subject to death; a human being.

Warn poor mortals left behind.

It is often used in ludicrous and colloquial language.

I can behold no mortal now.

Jehovah's Witness (who agree with the FPs on the resurrection of Christ) think that somehow Christ's body dissolved....which would require the body to die.

OR

That Christ has HIS FORMER MORTAL BODY hanging up in a celestial museum....like some type of display.

I am not quite sure how the MORTAL BODY would exist ALIVE without it being a SECOND JESUS....(Jesus the SPIRITUAL BODY and Jesus the MORTAL BODY) no matter WHERE it is stored.

Last point....it seems that Bro Burk wishes to infer that the APPEARANCE of Jesus Christ that John saw in Revelation 4:3 was NEVER seen on earth.

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

The Greek word for transfigured is metamorphoō from which we get the English word metamorphose--To change into a different form; to transform;

And if I remember my history correctly--Christ was still in His earthly PHYSICAL body when this occurred.

Furthermore, John saw ONE WHO SAT ON THE THRONE....certainly not just light.......and the appearance was like sparkling jewels.

Rev 4:3 The one who was sitting there sparkled like precious stones of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow that looked like an emerald surrounded the throne.

The Greek word metamorphoō has the same root as metaschēmatizō which is the Greek word used for CHANGE in the following passage.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I must also point out that the TRANSFIGURATION did not require the MORTAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST to die. Nor did it require Him to change clothes (to slip into something more suitable for what FPs call a SPIRITUAL BODY)

I am really curious as to what the FPs think happened to Christ's body in the ascent to heaven. Did it die...... as by definition of MORTAL it had to.

What did it die of?

And where is the scripture that says that Christ died again so that He could shed His MORTAL BODY to enjoy a Spiritual Body in Heaven???


Parson