The Lord’s Supper or the Eucharist?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Consider:

Matthew 26:17-28
17Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
18And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
20Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It was a Passover Seder.

Matthew puts in on Nisan 15 while John does not. However the Eucharist was spotlighted only on the bread and the wine. The Lamb meat was not blessed as the body of the lord neither was any other food. He said, THIS ye do in remembrance of me. (He said nothing of keeping the passover feast to remember him)

While the setting may or may not be the Seder, there is no evidence that the New testament teaches it as a feast.

The point is to cross over out of Jewish tradition as Paul indicated. That is why I believe the Bible stresses the Lord's supper to be bread and wine only, not meant to be a meal or feast, like the Seder that you imply.

Why is it that John disagrees with Matthew regarding the date?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

And you disagree with his theology so you throw out his assessment? What do you say of John's timeline in the gospels that the supper occurred on Nisan 14 rather than on Nisan 15 when the Seder supposedly was celebrated? On Nisan 14 the lambs are still being executed. No feast took place on this day.

It is important to note that the Bible declares no meal, rather than a simple breaking of bread and a cup of the fruit of the vine.

From Wickipedia:

The Passover Seder (Hebrew: סֵדֶר‎ [ˈsedeʁ], "order, arrangement"; Yiddish: Seyder) is a Jewish ritual feast that marks the beginning of the jewish holiday of passover. It is conducted on the evenings of the 14th day of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, and on the 15th by traditionally observant Jews living outside Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder

Dude doesn't know his stuff. The Seder was celebrated when??? 14th day of Nissan.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The dude is bent.

Both the Eastern Orthodox church and the Presbyterians agree, that it was not Seder. The antiquity of the Eastern Church along with the Antiquity of the Roman church, although they are a split, both agree.

Do you have any Christian historians such as Iranaeus or Ignatius that claim its the Seder?

[onefaith2]

Here are a few


Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (the Didache), 9:2; 14:1, circa 90 A.D.:

Regarding the Eucharist ... Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too, the saying of the Lord is applicable: Do not give to dogs what is sacred.

On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations. [Mal 1:11,14].


Justin Martyr, Apology, I.66-67, 2nd century:

Communion in the Body and Blood of Christ

It is allowed to no one else to participate in that food which we call Eucharist except the one who believes that the things taught by us are true, who has been cleansed in the washing unto rebirth and the forgiveness of sins and who is living according to the way Christ handed on to us. For we do not take these things as ordinary bread or ordinary drink. Just as our Savior Jesus Christ was made flesh by the word of God and took on flesh and blood for our salvation, so also were we taught that the food, for which thanksgiving has been made through the word of prayer instituted by him, and from which our blood and flesh are nourished after the change, is the flesh of that Jesus who was made flesh. Indeed, the Apostles, in the records left by them which are called gospels, handed on that it was commanded to them in this manner: Jesus, having taken bread and given thanks said, ``Do this in memory of me, this is my body.'' Likewise, having taken the cup and given thanks, he said, ``This is my blood'', and he gave it to them alone.

The Sunday Assembly

Furthermore, after this we always remind one another of these things. Those who have the means aid those who are needy, and we are always united. Over everything which we take to ourselves we bless the Creator of the universe through His Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On the day called after the sun [Sunday] there is a meeting for which all those dwelling in the cities or in the countryside come together. The records of the Apostles or the writings of the prophets are read as long as time allows. When the reader has stopped, the one who is presiding admonishes and encourages us by a sermon to the imitation of those good examples.

Then we all stand up together and lift up our prayers and, as I said previously, when we have finished our prayer, bread is brought forth and wine and water. The one who is presiding offers up prayers and thanksgiving according to his ability and the people acclaim their assent with ``Amen.'' There is the distribution of and participation on the part of each one in the gifts for which thanks has been offered, and they are sent to those who are not present through the deacons.

We all come together on the day of the sun since it is the first day, on which God changed darkness and matter and made the world. On that day, Jesus Christ our Savior arose from the dead. They crucified him on the day preceding that of Saturn, and on the day of the sun he appeared to his Apostles and disciples and taught them these things which we have presented also to you for inspection.

[Aquila]

Please note that one aspect of the Lord's supper was that it also served as a meal of charity to those saints who were in need:

I Corinthians 11:22
22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 11:22
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

1 Corinthians 11:22
New Living Translation (NLT)
22 What? Don’t you have your own homes for eating and drinking? Or do you really want to disgrace God’s church and shame the poor? What am I supposed to say? Do you want me to praise you? Well, I certainly will not praise you for this!

1 Corinthians 11:22
Amplified Bible (AMP)
22What! Do you have no houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and mean to show contempt for it, while you humiliate those who are poor (have no homes and have brought no food)? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, [most certainly] I will not!

Your sacramentalist position doesn't allow for the Lord's Supper being a feast of charity that also served to feed the poor. The problem was that many of the Corinthian brothren, who didn't need such assistance, were pigging out on the meal and leaving nothing for those in need.

1 Corinthians 11:22
The Message (MSG)
20-22And then I find that you bring your divisions to worship—you come together, and instead of eating the Lord's Supper, you bring in a lot of food from the outside and make pigs of yourselves. Some are left out, and go home hungry. Others have to be carried out, too drunk to walk. I can't believe it! Don't you have your own homes to eat and drink in? Why would you stoop to desecrating God's church? Why would you actually shame God's poor? I never would have believed you would stoop to this. And I'm not going to stand by and say nothing.

Paul wasn't rebuking the notion of the Lord's Supper being the meal that it was. Paul was rebuking the abuse of it and the inconsiderate carelessness that left those in need without food. Paul's point is simply this... if those who were not in need were that hungry and wanting to get buzzed on some wine... they should have do that at home instead of coming to the love feast to pig out and get drunk in an invironment that is supposed to be one of worship and devotion.

In the house church I attend, we are very considerate to ensure that everyone has had their fill of the Lord's Supper before seconds are taken... and we never get drunk. If we know someone will be late, we set aside a plate for them. And yes, we break a loaf of bread and pass it around. And yes, we pass around a single cup. Participants dip their bread into the cup and partake as it passes by. And yes... only those who are baptized are permitted to partake in the bread and the wine.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Both the Eastern Orthodox church and the Presbyterians agree, that it was not Seder. The antiquity of the Eastern Church along with the Antiquity of the Roman church, although they are a split, both agree.

Do you have any Christian historians such as Iranaeus or Ignatius that claim its the Seder?

So you actually think that the love feast, the Lord's Supper, was to be this sacramental "wafer" (made of God knows what) and a thimble of grape juice??? LOL

You're pulling from early Catholic church history, the Greek Orthodox, and the Presbyterians. They are the ones who desecrated the Lord's Supper and sacramentalized it into resembling a pagan mystery rite.

So, Onefaith, this New Year's Eve... will you partake in the Catholic Eucharist or the Lord's Supper?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So you actually think that the love feast, the Lord's Supper, was to be this sacramental "wafer" (made of God knows what) and a thimble of grape juice??? LOL

You're pulling from early Catholic church history, the Greek Orthodox, and the Presbyterians. They are the ones who desecrated the Lord's Supper and sacramentalized it into resembling a pagan mystery rite.

So, Onefaith, this New Year's Eve... will you partake in the Catholic Eucharist or the Lord's Supper?

Neither, I will take Communion. However, Communion is not meant to be a supper as I find no scripture that mandates it so. I assume you desire to keep the Jewish traditions of Seder in your remembrance of the Lord for a reason. That is your personal preference.

As for pulling from early Catholic history, I am pulling from early church history and part of that is Catholic. Everything that the Catholics teach is not false. Their historical accounts of folks like Iranaeus and Justin Martyr are true and they show how the early church partook in the Communion, which they called the holy Eucharist. It was bread and fruit of the vine.

[Jay]

The problem would still exist today, where the greedy and selfish would eat more than is reasonable, and then others would eat little. The RCC just eliminated the meal and preserved the cermonial portion of the event. Perhaps, if not done originally, they solved the irritant that was the excessive and irreverant feasting.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Neither, I will take Communion. However, Communion is not meant to be a supper as I find no scripture that mandates it so. I assume you desire to keep the Jewish traditions of Seder in your remembrance of the Lord for a reason. That is your personal preference.

As for pulling from early Catholic history, I am pulling from early church history and part of that is Catholic. Everything that the Catholics teach is not false. Their historical accounts of folks like Iranaeus and Justin Martyr are true and they show how the early church partook in the Communion, which they called the holy Eucharist. It was bread and fruit of the vine.

Bro... the Catholic church condemned the Lord's Supper as was practiced by the Apostles. It was separated from the meal and then it was ordered that only a priest could facilitate it. These are the individuals who distorted the Lord's Supper. Of course they will support pagan sacramentalism.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

The problem would still exist today, where the greedy and selfish would eat more than is reasonable, and then others would eat little. The RCC just eliminated the meal and preserved the cermonial portion of the event. Perhaps, if not done originally, they solved the irritant that was the excessive and irreverant feasting.

Ummmm.... Jay... I attend a house church network. We do the Lord's Supper every week with a type of potluck. We always ensure that all have eaten before going for seconds and we always hold back at least a plate if somone reports that they are running late. We've had no issues and I've been attending these meetings for well over a year. During the meal we share testimonies and prayer requests. It's like a family dinner. After the meal we pray, reflect on the Lord's death and what it means to us. We evaluate ourselves and yes it's not unusual to PUBLICALLY CONFESS sin and ask for prayer from the group. After prayer, praise God and we then pass a loaf of bread and a cup of grape juice around the table. After the Lord's Supper we sing songs and then clean up. After clean up we men break away and go to the basement. It's here that we "check in" and talk about our spiritual walk and condition as it relates to our position in Christ. We pray for one another to become all that Christ intends. The women are upstairs doing the same. Then the women join us in the basement and we cover a passage of Scripture. The elder reads it or we take turns. It depends on if he wishes to lead off the discussion. After the passage is read the elder shares his thoughts and gets us discussing it and it's practical application to our lives. It's a time wherein we minister to one another sharing our insights and experiences. It's a beautiful thing Jay. And it happens every week in our church community.

Here's an introductory video from the house church network I attend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLSkWrypu3Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBGnu...eature=related