Originally Posted by BroMatt
I have been thinking and praying about this thread, and my replys here. Though I have indeed "lumped" all Muslims into one box, and indeed violence against the innocent done in the name of Jesus or via Islam, in both cases are evil and very wrong. However...
I have pointed out several times that the prophet of Islam killed and waged war, and the excuses usually involve, "well, it was a different day and age". It was conversion by the sword.
But not conversion to Islam. It was removal of sinful, pagan practices by the sword.
Jesus killed no one, waged no war, and did not advocate violence. He lived in a "different age" also. He advocated conversion by grace and mercy.
If as you say He is God then he certainly judged the Jews for their actions a short time after he was taken into Heaven. He also handily cleaned out the temple and it was not in a non-violent manner either. Mohammed handily cleaned out the Kabaa (Place of Abraham) in Mecca in a similar manner.
When discussing the difference, the following was listed, AS THOUGH justifying the things that the prophet of Islam did.
Just clarifying your "Jesus is God but did not advocate violence as response to paganism"' argument
The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."
Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? testing?)
The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."
Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah
Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites
Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish
Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites
Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites
Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites
Joshua was a busy man. "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."
Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek
Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.
Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.
The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites
Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground
The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon
The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish
The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire
Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.
These things were done at God's command centuries before Jesus walked the earth. Are you saying that God told your prophet to kill and wage war?
Something triggered the Prophet to clean out the Place of Abraham and dedicate it to the worship of Abraham's God. If pagan idols were removed and pagan practices were eliminated then from an outcome based analysis it was a good thing.
Ultimately, in that Islam gives no true salvation, no impartation of God's Spirit, there is no chance for the "believer" to receive the strength directly from God to walk out salvation. It is a tragic merry-go-round of works and attempts to justify.
At the end, as per Revelations, we will be judged by our works. I advise care be taken with that works thing. Were the sheep and goats separated by faith wouldn't the book have said so?
The true promises of God lead to a dramatic salvation experience that includes receiving the Holy Ghost into the believer, taking on oneself the name of Jesus Christ in baptism, and repentance that changes the very way someone lives their life.
To reach back into the "Old Testament" to attempt to make that which was old into justification and accusation of that which is new is intellectual dishonesty.
Jesus himself stated he came to fulfill the law, not change it. He probably meant what he said and not what his words were spun into years later didn't he?
The new covenant is established on better promises, and the bible states that clearly. God who does not change did indeed offer us a better deal than the previous one.
Islam did not change, does not change, as they stress to me often in discussions. There was no salvation purchased by the blood of a saviour in the Koran, and instead there is only laws, rules, and rituals.
So, while I did indeed put all Muslims into the terrorist "box" which was unfair and I acknowledged my error and apologized. You have placed the Old Testament into the New Testament, thereby blending that which God seperated intentionally, in order to make your argument and justification on behalf of violence while at the same time finding fault that I grouped you in with the worker's of voilence in Islam's current history.
You can't have it both ways. Those that murder today in Islam's name, which I call terrorists, do so following the behaviour that the prophet whom you honor did. How can you justify the prophet murdering others and condemn those that follow his example today? Is what the prophet did evil? I contend that it was, and that he was evil, and that which he produced is also evil.
This is why it is so difficult for those that try to follow him yet desire peace and truth in their hearts to find that peace. It just doesn't add up.
I can understand the difficulty. As always, a pleasure
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