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  #1  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:11 AM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
What is the point of posting a list of places that are not Apostolic by ANY measure in this board over "tithing." Really? smh
No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.

The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.
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  #2  
Old 07-08-2013, 06:24 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.

The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.
Catholics don't force tithing. They are the richest religion in the world.
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  #3  
Old 07-08-2013, 07:43 PM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

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Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
Catholics don't force tithing. They are the richest religion in the world.
First of all there is no such thing as force tithing, anyone who doesn't want to be a Christian is free to walk out the door, there are no guards at the door.
The catholic is the richest because of all their past tricks and the chicanery that they do. They fleece their flocks in other ways.
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  #4  
Old 07-09-2013, 03:35 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.
I see some issues here. The first is fear. Yes, fear. The assumption is that without tithing a church is committing suicide. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Why? It's simple. Nearly every charitable organization in America functions in accordance to fee will donations and pledges. And they are not "committing suicide". In fact, most have far more revenue for their ministry than most churches. However, I've seen churches that demand tithing slow to a virtual crawl with relation to the number attending. You'll notice that they develop the faithful core... and then the rest come and go. The core keeps the church afloat and the transient saints attend and leave throughout the year. Their retention rates are typically abysmal if charted after a year of a major "revival". Yet a "grace giving" church allows people to attend freely, and remain in good standing, as they give what they can. This is important... people don't feel dangled over hell for 10% of their income and they rejoice in God's grace and give freely to the work. On average they may not give as much each offering as a tither would individually... yet the number attending normally presents a greater harvest. For example... would you rather have 10 dedicated tithers in one service bringing in around $2000... or 1000 dedicated givers giving about $10 each for a total of $10,000? As numbers grow so does the harvest... exponentially. Not only that, but churches that believe in "grace giving" also have "covenant partners" who pledge to give a certain amount or percentage for a year. This helps with budget projections. This pledge is treated like a vow before God... and to break the vow is indeed considered a grave sin that will bring a curse. Also tithe demanding churches don't distribute the tithe among the parties that the tithe was biblically supposed to support. Therefore, unlike the OT tithe and modern tithe is a woeful burden upon many who are on the edge of poverty. In a grace giving church even the poorest member can contribute what they reasonably can and remain in good standing... and even be used in ministry. Thus grace giving relieves the burden of the poor.

Grace giving is far more than just happy go lucky "free will offerings". There is a philosophy and an approach to it.

In fact, those who believe in tithing demonstrate their lack of faith that God will provide if they don't dangle people over hell to extort money from them. Grace giving churches exercise faith and watch as God miraculously moves on individual hearts to meet needs as they arise. It takes faith to build a ministry or a church on grace giving. It only takes a fist to bang on a pulpit to demand the tithe for fear that the church would be "committing suicide" without it.

Quote:
The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.
Prior to the law the tithe was a customary voluntary tribute that established a covenant relationship. It was most often a one time contribution unless one sought a continued covenant relationship with a local leader. However, it was entirely voluntary and no one went to Hell because they didn't tithe. Thus... the OT tithe is much closer to grace giving in it's philosophy. Please note... most "covenant partners" in grace giving churches vow... a tithe. And it's voluntary as it was in the OT. This being said... grace giving cannot be called some strange new doctrine. In fact, the first generation of Christians lived while the temple was standing and many continued their connection to the Jewish community. They would "tithe" to the temple as the law demanded (as Jews) and give freely to their Christian brothers and sisters as needs arose. However, after the expulsion of Christians from the Jewish communities Christians ceased to tithe and gave heartily and freely to their Christian communities.

Now, a special note is in order. The laws governing the tithe I the OT was strictly in relation to harvest and live stock. However, if one lived too far away to bring their harvest and livestock to the temple... they could sell it and bring the money to the temple. Once one arrived at the temple, those who brought harvest and livestock (and those who brought money) had to exchange their harvest and livestock (or unclean money) for a ceremonial kind of money that was only valuable to use in the temple offerings. Thus the Jewish temple system racked in quite a profit in grain, livestock, and money. When the Christians were excluded from temple services and began to spread throughout the empire this process was abandoned along with attending the temple. Christians were also typically of the poorer classes; slaves and servants. Not a lot of "money" to give. And since Christians didn't have "church buildings" for nearly 300 years we know that there were no "banks" or special locations to store vast amounts of revenue, grain, or livestock. The truth is... they gave heartily and shared their lives to meet every need that arose as it arose.

Grace giving. Praise God.

Last edited by Aquila; 07-09-2013 at 03:43 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:02 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.

The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.
"strange new doctrine"

LIST OF TITHING OPPONENTS IN HISTORY




Clement of Rome 100
Didache 100 (also see my site and book)
Justin Martyr 165
Tertullian 230
Origen 255
Cyprian 258 (my site)
Waldenses 1150+-
Thomas Aquinas 1275
John Wycliff 1384
John Huss 1415
German Peasants 1520
Anabaptists 1525
Erasmus 1536
Otto Brumfels 1534
Martin Luther 1546
Philip Melanchthon 1560
Separatists Amsterdam 1603
John Smythe 1609 Baptist
John Robinson 1610
English Parliament 1650+-
Puritans & Plgrims Mass 1650+-
John Cotton 1652 Puritan
Roger Williams 1636 Baptist
Little Parliament 1653
Oliver Cromwell 1658
John Milton 1658 Puritan
Particular Baptists 1660
John Owen 1680 Baptist
Francis Turretin 1687
John Bunyan 1688 Baptist
Quakers 1768
John Gill 1771 Baptist
John Wesley 1791 (my site)
BAPTISTS IN AMERICA 1800s
Adam Clarke 1832 Baptist
Charles Buck 1833
J C Philpot 1835 Baptist
Charles H Spurgeon 1832 Baptist
Parsons Cooke 1850
Samuel Harris 1850
Edward A Lawrence 1850
John Peter Lange 1876
Henry William Clark 1891 Engllish
S H Kellogg 1891
G Campbell Morgan 1898 Congregational
Albert Vail 1913 Baptist
Frank Fox 1913
David MaConaughy 11918 Episcopal
William Pettingill 1932
John Harvey Grime 1934 Baptist
John T Mueller 1934 Lutheran
H E Dana 1937 Bapt Historian (my site)
R C H LENSKI 1946 Lutheran
Lewis Sperry Chafer 1948 DTS Foundeer
W E Vine 1949
James F Rand 1953
Francis Pieper 1953 Lutheran
Ray Stedman 1951
L L McR 1955 Catholic
Paul Leonard Stagg 1958 Baptist
Hiley H Ward 1958 Baptist
Roy T Cowles 1958
Elizabeth P Tilton 1958
R C Rein 1958 Lutheran
Robert A Baker 1959 Bapt Historian
Wick Bromall 1960
John Byron Evans 1960
Norman Tenpas 1967
James Edward Anderson 1967
Alfred Martin 1968
CHARLES C RYRIE 1969 DTS
Jerry Horner 1972 S Baptist
Pieter Verhoef 1974
Dennis Wretlind 1975
Jack J Peterson 1978 Pres
Donald Kraybill 1978
Jon Zens 1979 Baptist
Richard Cunningham 1979 S Bapt
Gary Frieson 1980
JOHN MACARTHUR 1982-2000
Paul Fink 1982
George Monroe Castillo 1982
Tony Badillo 1984
James M Boice 1986
Michael E Oliver 1986 Rest
W Clyde Tilley 1987
Scott Collier 1987
Ronald M Campbell 1987
R E O White 1988
William McDonald 1989
Charles Swindoll 1990 Dallas Seminary
Rhodes Thompson 1990
J VERNON MCGEE 1999
Jerome Smith 1992
CRAIG BLOMBERG 1993 Denver Seminary
J Duncan M Derrett 1993
Walter Kaiser Jr 1994 Gordon-Cromwell
Moises Silva 1994
Benny D Prince 1995
Brian K Morley 1996
Linda L Belleville 1996
Ron Rhodes 1997
Ernest L Martin 1997
Michael Webb 1998
R Johnston 1999
Mark Snoeberger 2000 Baptist
Stuart Murray 2000 Eng
George W Greene 2000
Old Line Primitive Baptists 2000
Jaime Cardinal Sin 2000 Cath Archbishop
RUSSELL EARL KELLY 2001 Baptist
Jonathan Kitchcart 2001
Frank Viola 2002
George Barna 2002
Michael Morrison 2002
Elliott Miller 2003
Matthew Narramore 2004
David Alan Black 2004 Baptist SEBTS (my site)
Andreas Kostenberger 2007 Baptist SEBTS (my site)
Danny Akin 2007 Baptist SEBTS (my site)
Mark Driscoll 2008
Roman Catholic Church
Jehovah’s Witnesses
New Worldwide Church of God
__________________


http://www.paganchristianity.org


Go here on tithing----->

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

If it is God's will for your illness then why are you seeking medical attention to get rid of it?
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2013, 07:58 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.

The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.
First... the tithe wasn't "established" before the law. One time in Abrahams life he gave a tenth of the spoils of war to a King. (which was an established custom of those days) That isn't establishing a tithe. An established tithe would be that it was an established concept that people gave a tenth to the Levites or some facsimile thereof.

To state that one man gave a tenth, not of his income or his flock, but of the spoils of war one time to one king isn't an established concept. It is an example of something that happened in history.

Secondly... It isn't committing financial suicide. It is trusting God. If one has a true understanding of what is being said in Malachi 3 we would see that God was telling the priests... who were keeping all of the tithe for themselves... that if they would trust God and go back to the 10% they were supposed to be keeping then they would have more than they could handle. It would seem that going from 100% to 10% would be financial suicide but God said... do it my way and see what happens. I'll bless you more than you can handle.

This is what preachers tell people all the time. You think you can't afford to tithe? You can't afford NOT to tithe... try God and see if He doesn't pour out on you a blessing you cannot contain.

But... then... when the tables are turned and someone says... trust the Lord... now all of a sudden it's financial suicide.

On the issue of what was really being said in Malachi 3 here is a post of mine from another thread.

Quote:
In Numbers 18 the instructions were that 10% of the tithe was to be kept for the Levites (Which would include all of those who worked in the temple... porters, musicians etc). Then another 10% was to be given to the priest. They were to take only 10% for each group but they were allowed to take the best of it.

The rest fed the elderly, the poor, the widows, the orphans, strangers etc.

Also the priest was never to handle the tithe outside the 10% that was given to him by God's word. The Levites who were not priests handled the division of the tithe to the priests, themselves and the people and what was not in the 20% given to the priests & Levites was kept in the store house.

Now... with that in mind remember what Nehemiah found when he came to Jerusalem? (Also remember that Nehemiah and Malachi were contemporaries)

* He found an Ammonite living in the storehouse rather than the tithe being stored there.
* He found the priests handling the tithe rather than the Levites.
* He found the priests were keeping ALL the tithe and weren't even giving the Levites their part and had the Levites working... even on the sabbath.
* He found that the poor, elderly, widows etc were not being fed with the tithe.

Now... take in consideration that Malachi starts off his book by stating this in 1:1... The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

He was saying... this message is to Israel.

Now note this... In 2:1 he states And now, O ye priests, this commandment [is] for you.

And he never denotes a change of audience even through the third chapter.

Malachi was talking about what Nehemiah had found in the temple.

In Malachi 3 he was saying...

Mal 3:8 KJV - Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. (WHO robbed God? Who is Malachi talking to? The Priests!!!) But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. (They were stealing the tithes & offerings by not having them handled according to Gods law)
Mal 3:9 KJV - Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation. (The priests have not only robbed God but they have robbed the entire nation because the tithe was to the Levites first... then the priests... then the entire nation)
Mal 3:10 KJV - Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, (Kick out that Ammonite who is forbidden to even be in the congregation much less live in the storehouse. And... did the people EVER take their tithes to the storehouse? No... they brought it to the Levites. This isn't to the people. This is to the priests who were mishandling the tithe when they shouldn't have been handling it at all) that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].


So God is saying... handle the tithe the way I said to handle it. You might think you'll be broke if you do that because you're taking it all right now but try my word... take care of my people... give the control back to the Levites... give the Levites there portion... feed the people. Do all this so there will, once again, be meat in my house and you'll find out that your blessings will be more than you can handle.

Like the preachers say... you just have to understand Gods math.

But these scriptures are twisted 180 degrees from the actual message.
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  #7  
Old 08-28-2013, 02:01 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: List of grace giving churches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.

The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.
Admittedly, I have not read every response to this thread, but would you mind sharing where God established tithing before the Law? Please read my request carefully.
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