Who Was Melchizedek ?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Well, first of all... I don't know. I don't know how or even if it could happen. I don't know that it did happen literally - but from an entirely cultural standpoint it does seem that something important is going on here.

A few questions, Pel. If it did happen, why doesn't it happen now? Or if you think it happens now, are all giants the offspring of a human and angelic union?

Almost every culture on the planet has some tale about "the gods" or "the sons of the gods" or some supernatural order of beings interbreeding with human women and/or men. Peleus the father of Achilles comes to mind as an example of a human male who conceived a child with a goddess; in this case Thetus. The father-god figure of Zeus was notorious for his affairs with mortal women and all of his offspring were either gods (Apollo and Aphrodite) or heroes (Heracles).

And....????? are you hinting that there is a grain of truth to all of these myths?

The denial of such unions is really a novelty from late antiquity and the early medieval age. Given Peter and Jude's apparent acceptance of this view, we either have to take it seriously in some fashion or reject Peter and Jude.

I might have missed it and if I did could, you give me the link to the post that expounds on the verse in the epistles of Peter and Jude which show their acceptance of this view? or can you explain to me why you believe Peter and Jude accept this view. I can't recall having that impression when I read their epistles.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Good thoughts. But are we then to excise Jude 1:14-15 and 1 Peter 3:19-20 from our Bibles as well?

Perhaps at this time they had the original. Or perhaps they "remembered" stories or had commentary of the original.

Some suggest that someone inserted or wrote the book of Enoch after Jude and included what Jude said

Barnes

There is, indeed, now an apocryphal writing called “the Book of Enoch,” containing a prediction strongly resembling this, but there is no certain proof that it existed so early as the time of Jude, nor, if it did, is it absolutely certain that he quoted from it. Both Jude and the author of that book may have quoted a common tradition of their time, for there can be no doubt that the passage referred to was handed down by tradition. The passage as found in “the Book of Enoch” is in these words: “Behold he comes with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal, for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done and committed against him,” chapter ii. Bib. Repository, vol. xv. p. 86. If the Book of Enoch was written after the time of Jude, it is natural to suppose that the prophecy referred to by him, and handed down by tradition, would be inserted in it. This book was discovered in an AEthiopic version, and was published with a translation by Dr. Laurence of Oxford, in 1821, and republished in 1832. A full account of it and its contents may be seen in an article by Prof. Stuart in the Bib. Repository for January 1840, pp. 86-137.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

A few questions, Pel. If it did happen, why doesn't it happen now? Or if you think it happens now, are all giants the offspring of a human and angelic union?

My best guess it that it probably did not happen - literally. However that the story and the examples given contain an important cultural element that goes back to the time before recorded history. Some people like Erich von Daniken want to put space aliens into the story here; but I don't think that's needed or warranted. We still have an amazing story that possibly links all human beings on the planet to a common thread.

Anything beyond the commonality of the story seems to end up being myth, legend or speculation. I'm afraid that's all I've got; a great big question - but a question that does answer a lot of secular arguments against the veracity and importance of the Bible.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

And....????? are you hinting that there is a grain of truth to all of these myths?

More than a grain - but remember, the story can be completely true without being a record of an historical event. Remember that there was a certain man who went down to Jericho? As it turns out, that "certain man" never actually existed nor did the rest of the characters in the story. And no one who heard the story was required to believe it had literally happened - but we are all admonished to accept the truth of the story and to model the behavior of the Good Samaritan.

The same case can be made for the Parable of Rich Man and Lazarus. This was told as a series of parables and clearly identified as such in the Gospel of Luke. Wee don't have to believe that the poor man Lazarus had lain on the street with dogs licking his sores to believe in the truth of the resurrection and judgment to come.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I might have missed it and if I did could, you give me the link to the post that expounds on the verse in the epistles of Peter and Jude which show their acceptance of this view? or can you explain to me why you believe Peter and Jude accept this view. I can't recall having that impression when I read their epistles.

Jude 1:14-15 is clearly a quote from the Bookk of Enoch
:
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Enoch 1:9:

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

1 Peter 3:19-20, though not a quote like Jude's is a specific reference that has convince readers of the Bible from the 100's through today that Peter had Enoch's description in mind:

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Enoch 21:

1,2 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither 3 a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw 4 seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then 5 I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why 6 dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, 7 the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of 8 fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. Then I said: 'How 9 fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And 10 I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

[pelathais]

Now, again to recap - I don't believe that supernatural beings deposited their 23 chromosomes with the 23 chromosomes of the "daughters of men" producing monstrous and/or heroic offspring. I am merely observing that this is a common story in antiquity and that it probably contains some important germ of truth that has largely been lost to us now.

One important thing that we can confidently observe, however, is that the human family is just that: a family. This story is just another piece of evidence that shows human beings from all over the world share a common descent and - most likely - a common future.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Perhaps at this time they had the original. Or perhaps they "remembered" stories or had commentary of the original.

To paraphrase the King of Lacedaemonians: "Perhaps."

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Some suggest that someone inserted or wrote the book of Enoch after Jude and included what Jude said

Except that we have fragments from Qumram that are much older than Jude which bear record to the fact that it was Jude who quoted "Enoch."

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Barnes

There is, indeed, now an apocryphal writing called “the Book of Enoch,” containing a prediction strongly resembling this, ...

From about the time of Augustine forward, everyone seems to have been trying to throw our monstrous and/or heroic babies out with their bathwater. To do so would make a difficult problem easier to handle - but would it be honest? I don't think so. I'd rather have a thousand loose ends than a single intractable knot woven from my own obstinance.

Why not accept the fact that there were human beings in antiquity discussing matters that leave us a bit bewildered? Do we have some sort of mindset that since they were "ancient" they must also have been "more primitive" than ourselves? Fact of the matter is - we have irrational mobs today that lash out violently against their neighbors and display the same ignorances and superstitions as "ancient people" did. There is wisdom to be found in the ancient texts.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Hey wasn't Malkhi-Tzedek The Righteous King Of Tzedek ?Tzedek was the name of Jerusalem.I understand that from Hebrews 7 his genealogy wasn't recorded in Genesis for some reason.
Without Father And Mother simply means that Genesis did not record his genealogy.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Hey wasn't Malkhi-Tzedek The Righteous King Of Tzedek ?Tzedek was the name of Jerusalem.I understand that from Hebrews 7 his genealogy wasn't recorded in Genesis for some reason.
Without Father And Mother simply means that Genesis did not record his genealogy.

Well, we've talked about lots of stuff here that is not on the subject of Melchizedek but about who he was/is we have three opinions:
1. a theophany or pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus. YHWH appeared many times as the Word/Memra/Logos/Ha-Kavod/Angel or Messenger of the Lord and some folks think Melchizedek was one of them
2. Shem
3. an unknown person with no recorded pedigree who appears in this one incidence and then disappears from the record

[Scott Hutchinson]

The book of Enoch would agree with number 2.
The bible tells that he was a King of Salem and a High priest of God,number one though in my opinion seems to read too much into the text.
But hey I'm not dogmatic and this fellow whomever he was is important enough to be mentioned in the book of better things.

[mizpeh]

I'd agree with number 2, too.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

My best guess it that it probably did not happen - literally. However that the story and the examples given contain an important cultural element that goes back to the time before recorded history. Some people like Erich von Daniken want to put space aliens into the story here; but I don't think that's needed or warranted. We still have an amazing story that possibly links all human beings on the planet to a common thread.

Anything beyond the commonality of the story seems to end up being myth, legend or speculation. I'm afraid that's all I've got; a great big question - but a question that does answer a lot of secular arguments against the veracity and importance of the Bible.

More than a grain - but remember, the story can be completely true without being a record of an historical event. Remember that there was a certain man who went down to Jericho? As it turns out, that "certain man" never actually existed nor did the rest of the characters in the story. And no one who heard the story was required to believe it had literally happened - but we are all admonished to accept the truth of the story and to model the behavior of the Good Samaritan.

The same case can be made for the Parable of Rich Man and Lazarus. This was told as a series of parables and clearly identified as such in the Gospel of Luke. Wee don't have to believe that the poor man Lazarus had lain on the street with dogs licking his sores to believe in the truth of the resurrection and judgment to come.


Jude 1:14-15 is clearly a quote from the Bookk of Enoch
:
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Enoch 1:9:

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

1 Peter 3:19-20, though not a quote like Jude's is a specific reference that has convince readers of the Bible from the 100's through today that Peter had Enoch's description in mind:

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Enoch 21:

1,2 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither 3 a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw 4 seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then 5 I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why 6 dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, 7 the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of 8 fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. Then I said: 'How 9 fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And 10 I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

Thank you, Pel. You are challenging Sam in the knowledge department.

I think I may give the book of Enoch a read.

Chapter 12

1Before all these things Enoch was concealed; nor did any one of the sons of men know where he was concealed, where he had been, and what had happened.

2He was wholly engaged with the holy ones, and with the Watchers in his days.

3I, Enoch, was blessing the great Lord and King of peace.

4And behold the Watchers called me Enoch the scribe.

5Then the Lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women.

6And have done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth;

7That on the earth they shall never obtain peace and remission of sin. For they shall not rejoice in their offspring; they shall behold the slaughter of their beloved; shall lament for the destruction of their sons; and shall petition for ever; but shall not obtain mercy and peace.

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/enoch.html