3.5 years or 1260 years

[good samaritan]

I just read where SDAs teach that the little horn of Daniel will wear out the saints for 1260 years. Those 1260years are allegedly papal control. I have never heard this before and it seems to me to be a real stretch. Anyone have experience with this view.

[good samaritan]

The decree of Justinian in 533 AD recognized the pope as head of the churches and begun the 1260 years of the little horn. According to the “Mark of the Beast” by E.G. White

[mfblume]

That day-for-a-year concept is seriously flawed, I believe.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That day-for-a-year concept is seriously flawed, I believe.

I think it is rightly applied to Daniels 70weeks. But to manipulate a time,times, and a 1/2 time to = 1260 years seems to be a stretch. I really try to understand other points of view, but I am struggling here.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think it is rightly applied to Daniels 70weeks. But to manipulate a time,times, and a 1/2 time to = 1260 years seems to be a stretch. I really try to understand other points of view, but I am struggling here.

Actually, it is not applied to Daniel's 70 weeks, because a WEEK in Hebrew is literally a SEVEN. Not "seven days" or "seven years," just "SEVEN". And the units of days or years are not even mentioned. We read English translations of the word WEEK and think it means seven days. But if you read Hebrew, you would literally read There are 70 sevens. It's like saying DOZENS without saying dozens of "what".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Actually, it is not applied to Daniel's 70 weeks, because a WEEK in Hebrew is literally a SEVEN. Not "seven days" or "seven years," just "SEVEN". And the units of days or years are not even mentioned. We read English translations of the word WEEK and think it means seven days. But if you read Hebrew, you would literally read There are 70 sevens. It's like saying DOZENS without saying dozens of "what".

They just happen to be sevens of days though, which were fulfilled as sevens of years.

The word "week" in the KJV old testament is "shabua":

Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
(Gen 29:27-28)

But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
(Lev 12:5)

Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
(Deu 16:9-10)

Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
(Jer 5:24)

So when Daniel is told there are seventy shabuas, he and every Judean would understand there are seventy weeks, seventy Sabbath-cycles. Since the seventy weeks turned out to be seventy weeks of actual years, the prophecy in Daniel is a demonstration of the so called "Year-Day Principle". There are others in Scripture as well:

Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
(Gen 29:27)

The marriage feast was a week (seven days), and corresponds to the seven years Jacob was willing to serve for his wife (and which Laban demanded of him for both Leah and Rachel). Both Jacob and Laban were familiar with the year-day correspondence, as it apparently was common practice to equate days with years, and to measure years in groups of seven, ie weeks of years, just as the regular week was seven days, the year-week was seven years. Calendrical time was created by God. The first element was the Day, which was then placed in groups of seven to make the week (the shabua) due to the sanctification of the seventh day of creation, the Sabbath. This is a wholly unnatural division of time, the only reason for a seven day week is because God blessed and sanctified and thus separated the seventh day as a demarcation in the time keeping. Later, this would be incorporated into the agricultural land sabbaths, every seven years, every week of years the land would enjoy a sabbath-year, just as man enjoyed a sabbath-day every week of days. (See Judges 14 for an example of a seven day wedding feast.)

It was also used in prophecy:

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
(Num 14:34)

Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
(Eze 4:4-6)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

They just happen to be sevens of days though, which were fulfilled as sevens of years.

The word "week" in the KJV old testament is "shabua":

Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
(Gen 29:27-28)

But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
(Lev 12:5)

Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
(Deu 16:9-10)

Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
(Jer 5:24)

So when Daniel is told there are seventy shabuas, he and every Judean would understand there are seventy weeks, seventy Sabbath-cycles. Since the seventy weeks turned out to be seventy weeks of actual years, the prophecy in Daniel is a demonstration of the so called "Year-Day Principle". There are others in Scripture as well:

Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
(Gen 29:27)

The marriage feast was a week (seven days), and corresponds to the seven years Jacob was willing to serve for his wife (and which Laban demanded of him for both Leah and Rachel). Both Jacob and Laban were familiar with the year-day correspondence, as it apparently was common practice to equate days with years, and to measure years in groups of seven, ie weeks of years, just as the regular week was seven days, the year-week was seven years. Calendrical time was created by God. The first element was the Day, which was then placed in groups of seven to make the week (the shabua) due to the sanctification of the seventh day of creation, the Sabbath. This is a wholly unnatural division of time, the only reason for a seven day week is because God blessed and sanctified and thus separated the seventh day as a demarcation in the time keeping. Later, this would be incorporated into the agricultural land sabbaths, every seven years, every week of years the land would enjoy a sabbath-year, just as man enjoyed a sabbath-day every week of days. (See Judges 14 for an example of a seven day wedding feast.)

It was also used in prophecy:

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
(Num 14:34)

Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
(Eze 4:4-6)

I disagree. Shabua simply means SEVEN, period. Not days or years. And people knew it meant years by context. The temple would be rebuilt in seven sevens. It would have to be years and not days.

Strong said: "literally sevened,"

It would best be understood as HEPTAD which is akin to PAIR or DOZEN. No specific units are implied.

IT CAN be years or days, and was used in those cases. But strictly speaking, it does not actually contain the definition of DAYS or YEARS.

It's just a period of 7 somethings.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think it is rightly applied to Daniels 70weeks. But to manipulate a time,times, and a 1/2 time to = 1260 years seems to be a stretch. I really try to understand other points of view, but I am struggling here.

First of all, this discussion has nothing to do with the SDA church. The fact they use the year-day principle has no more connection to them being seventh day Adventists than the fact many Baptists are pretribbers has anything to do with them being Baptists.

Second, the term "time" is understood to mean a year. The year is understood to mean 360 days (12 months of 30 days each, an average distribution of days and months). A time, times, and half of a time would then be 3 and a half years, or 1260 days total.

For example:

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(Rev 12:6)

Here, the woman goes into the wilderness for 1260 days for protection and nourishment.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(Rev 12:13-14)

Here, the same time frame is identified as a time, times, and half a time. Thus, the time, times, and half a time is 1260 days, which equates to 3.5 years of 360 days each.

Now, if one agrees that the so-called Year-Day Principle is valid, then one can easily see these Apocalyptic prophecies as being concerned with a 1260 year period (1260 days, a day for a year, 1260 actual years). Of course, if one does NOT agree that the Year-Day Principle is valid, then one will of course not think the Scripture could possibly be talking about 1260 years of actual time.

Why one would think the Principle is NOT valid, when it was used by God directly Himself to establish the time of the Israelites' wanderings in the wilderness, and when it was given to Ezekiel specifically to represent symbolic prophetical time, is a mystery to me, unless it was only because it would possibly conflict with a preconceived interpretation of prophecy.

[good samaritan]

Has the Catholic Church ever worn out the saints, as in persecution. The Catholic Church definitely is apostate in their teachings, but the early church suffered by far from the hands of Jews.

Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Saul was definitely the only Jewish persecutor of his day.

[good samaritan]

Question does the 1260days correlate with Daniels 70weeks?

If it doesn't then I could see it more.

If the time,times and half a time are representative of half of Daniels 70th week, it would be inconsistent to break it into a half being 1260years.