Jewish Feasts - Page 3

Esaias · #1 10-04-2014, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

The pagan-christian holidays celebrated in this country only serve to make me sick. The materialism, the mixing of pagan customs, and throwing the name of Jesus in there is sickening. It makes me want to stay out of the stores from now until January.

Please share with us what feasts of the Lord you celebrate. I know there is one coming up, is it the Feast of Trumpets?

I too don't believe celebrating the feasts as salvational, but there is more of Jesus to be celebrated in the Feast of Tabernacles, for example, than celebrating santy claus with his reindeers bringing good gifts.

We keep the weekly Sabbath (obviously), Passover/Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement (which begins tonight), and Tabernacles. Sometimes (when we can remember lol) we keep the new moons ( not as a holy day so much as a means of keeping track of the Biblical calendar for purposes of knowing when the feasts are scheduled to happen).

Previously things were pretty haphazard but this year we have developed an "order of service" we have been following (still being tweaked). Maybe later I'll post a copy of it.

Esaias · #2 10-04-2014, 07:39 PM

Lord willing I'll post a response to brother Blume's. I used to think the same way until deeper study lol.

mfblume · #3 10-06-2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Lord willing I'll post a response to brother Blume's. I used to think the same way until deeper study lol.

That's what they all say no matter what issue is debated.

Esaias · #4 10-06-2014, 11:15 PM

OK first the "why".

To begin with, God established certain times as "appointed times" that Israel was to keep. They are known as "the Feasts of the Lord". The day of Passover, the seven days of Unleavened Bread, the day of Pentecost, the day of Trumpets, theday of Atonement, the seven days of Tabernacles, and the solemn assembly on the day after Tabernacles (sometimes referred to as the last great day). These were in addition to the weekly Sabbath. They were festive occasions which included special sabbaths or days of rest and sacred assembly. They were appointments with God. They were given to both commemorate events in Israel's history as well as to outline God's divine Plan. Thus they have both a memorial aspect and a prophetic aspect.

Most Christians keep some kind of holy days. Most keep Easter, Christmas, and (among Pentecostals) New Year's Day, and often Thanksgiving Day, Mother's Day, and Halloween ( which is often called "Fall Festival" or something similar).

If one is going to observe some kind of special day, why not observe (in some fashion) the only special days of truly Divine origin? Why not God's days instead of man's?

These appointed times are Divinely ordained to teach us about Christ and God's Plan in the affairs of men.

The new testament gives indications that the early church kept these appointed times. Church history provides undisputable proof that at least Passover and Pentecost were kept from the beginning (and still are by most professing Christians btw). Scholars are reaching a consensus that the new testament shows the early church - including the gentile believers- were keeping them.

As catholicism arose in the 2nd-4th centuries the Biblical holy days were dropped in favour of "Christianized" pagan holy days like Christmas, Epiphany, All Saints, etc. Even though Passover was retained its timing was changed specifically so as NOT to be Biblical.

So, in short here's the reasons we keep the Bible holy days.

1. They are superior in every way to syncretistic pagan observances which originated in demon worship.

2. They are suited to teach us and our children the gospel of Christ in dramatic fashion.

3. The original apostolic church kept them.

4. They are shadows of things to come. ARE shadows not "were" shadows. Thus they still point to future events yet to be fulfilled by our Lord and thus have not been "done away" in such a sense as to render them irrelevent.

KeptByTheWord · #5 10-09-2014, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

OK first the "why".

To begin with, God established certain times as "appointed times" that Israel was to keep. They are known as "the Feasts of the Lord". The day of Passover, the seven days of Unleavened Bread, the day of Pentecost, the day of Trumpets, theday of Atonement, the seven days of Tabernacles, and the solemn assembly on the day after Tabernacles (sometimes referred to as the last great day). These were in addition to the weekly Sabbath. They were festive occasions which included special sabbaths or days of rest and sacred assembly. They were appointments with God. They were given to both commemorate events in Israel's history as well as to outline God's divine Plan. Thus they have both a memorial aspect and a prophetic aspect.

Most Christians keep some kind of holy days. Most keep Easter, Christmas, and (among Pentecostals) New Year's Day, and often Thanksgiving Day, Mother's Day, and Halloween ( which is often called "Fall Festival" or something similar).

If one is going to observe some kind of special day, why not observe (in some fashion) the only special days of truly Divine origin? Why not God's days instead of man's?

These appointed times are Divinely ordained to teach us about Christ and God's Plan in the affairs of men.

The new testament gives indications that the early church kept these appointed times. Church history provides undisputable proof that at least Passover and Pentecost were kept from the beginning (and still are by most professing Christians btw). Scholars are reaching a consensus that the new testament shows the early church - including the gentile believers- were keeping them.

As catholicism arose in the 2nd-4th centuries the Biblical holy days were dropped in favour of "Christianized" pagan holy days like Christmas, Epiphany, All Saints, etc. Even though Passover was retained its timing was changed specifically so as NOT to be Biblical.

So, in short here's the reasons we keep the Bible holy days.

1. They are superior in every way to syncretistic pagan observances which originated in demon worship.

2. They are suited to teach us and our children the gospel of Christ in dramatic fashion.

3. The original apostolic church kept them.

4. They are shadows of things to come. ARE shadows not "were" shadows. Thus they still point to future events yet to be fulfilled by our Lord and thus have not been "done away" in such a sense as to render them irrelevent.

I understand your reasoning, because I have studied it before. I have close friends who are Messianic. The problem is this. Paul was a Jew, therefore he continued to observe all of the Jewish customs, including feast days and traditions. However, there is not ONE clear instruction in any of his letters to any of the Gentile Christians about HOW they are to keep the Sabbath, feast days etc. Why do you suppose this is?

Instead, what we see is Paul condemning the Gentiles for conforming to the Jewish traditions in Galatians, because it was swaying them from their faith in Jesus. Because that is what ultimately happens, when you begin to observe tradition, and try to conform to things that are not part of your culture. It becomes very confusing, and ultimately takes faith away from Jesus, and places it in the traditions instead.

My Messianic friends have told me that they have known of many people who became Messianic, and got so deeply immersed in the "rights and wrongs" of how to do things, that they ultimately forsook Jesus, and began to buy into the Jewish beliefs so deeply, that they became Jewish in their faith, which is incredibly sad. My friends say they would never do that, that Jesus is everything to them.

However, I see a trend here, which Paul was indeed addressing in Galatians, that once you begin to get immersed in those traditions, and trying to do it "right" and not wrong... you become a slave to the law again, which should not be.

Esaias, I really don't see anything wrong with keeping the feasts of the Lord. In fact, it would make more sense to keep those feasts than the pagan-originating traditions that we call "Christian" today. It is for that reason alone, we would consider celebrating the feasts.

Yet, there is a fine line there to walk, because I have witnessed in my dear Messianic friends, that they are often tormented with the thought "am I doing it right?", and constantly they are second-guessing themselves, because they don't want to do anything that would be "wrong". And it becomes such a heavy burden. For example, my friend needed to fly somewhere on the Sabbath. She was so burdended about breaking the Sabbath and traveling, but then she comforted herself by the fact that she was bringing something from home with her, (something the Jews would do if they had to break the Sabbath and travel), that she was able to travel.

In my mind... where does this all stop? We want to have faith in the work of Calvary, and the fact that the veil in the temple was torn, and the old has been replaced with the new. Yet... the fact remains that there is a mental torment in knowing just WHAT has been replaced if you begin to walk in the Messianic way.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Esaias · #6 10-10-2014, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I understand your reasoning, because I have studied it before. I have close friends who are Messianic. The problem is this. Paul was a Jew, therefore he continued to observe all of the Jewish customs, including feast days and traditions. However, there is not ONE clear instruction in any of his letters to any of the Gentile Christians about HOW they are to keep the Sabbath, feast days etc. Why do you suppose this is?

Instead, what we see is Paul condemning the Gentiles for conforming to the Jewish traditions in Galatians, because it was swaying them from their faith in Jesus. Because that is what ultimately happens, when you begin to observe tradition, and try to conform to things that are not part of your culture. It becomes very confusing, and ultimately takes faith away from Jesus, and places it in the traditions instead.

My Messianic friends have told me that they have known of many people who became Messianic, and got so deeply immersed in the "rights and wrongs" of how to do things, that they ultimately forsook Jesus, and began to buy into the Jewish beliefs so deeply, that they became Jewish in their faith, which is incredibly sad. My friends say they would never do that, that Jesus is everything to them.

However, I see a trend here, which Paul was indeed addressing in Galatians, that once you begin to get immersed in those traditions, and trying to do it "right" and not wrong... you become a slave to the law again, which should not be.

Esaias, I really don't see anything wrong with keeping the feasts of the Lord. In fact, it would make more sense to keep those feasts than the pagan-originating traditions that we call "Christian" today. It is for that reason alone, we would consider celebrating the feasts.

Yet, there is a fine line there to walk, because I have witnessed in my dear Messianic friends, that they are often tormented with the thought "am I doing it right?", and constantly they are second-guessing themselves, because they don't want to do anything that would be "wrong". And it becomes such a heavy burden. For example, my friend needed to fly somewhere on the Sabbath. She was so burdended about breaking the Sabbath and traveling, but then she comforted herself by the fact that she was bringing something from home with her, (something the Jews would do if they had to break the Sabbath and travel), that she was able to travel.

In my mind... where does this all stop? We want to have faith in the work of Calvary, and the fact that the veil in the temple was torn, and the old has been replaced with the new. Yet... the fact remains that there is a mental torment in knowing just WHAT has been replaced if you begin to walk in the Messianic way.

Do you understand what I am saying?

I understand. Many who are "Messianic" or "Hebrew Roots" are Judaized. The problem is not keeping the Feasts. The OT instructions are very simple. If it was a specified sabbath then one RESTS FROM WORK on that day. One "has church" aka a "holy convocation". For Unleavened Bread you get rid of leaven and don't eat any leavened food products. For Tabernacles you build a tabernacle, etc.

The problems come in when the Rabbis are consulted. Jesus said the Pharisees were sons of hell and their proselytes were twice as bad. The Pharisees survived the destruction of thr Temple and exist today as Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative Judaism.

Many people try to adhere to the Rabbinical rules of the Talmud, disobeying Jesus' instruction about "beware the leaven of the Pharisees" and thus get into bondage. Your friend's issue with traveling on the sabbath being a perfect example.

Too many try to be Jews with Jesus tacked on. It won't work because Rabbinic Judaism is satanic as Jesus told us and as Paul warned us.

If one sticks to the Bible and keeps the New Covenant in Christ as the focus then your friend's problems will largely disappear.

We completed the frame, walls, roof and lighting for our tabernacle today. We ate supper in it and spent about 3 hours in it as a family, enjoying each other's company.

I thought "why would anyone NOT want to do this? It's FUN fer cryin out loud!" lol

BTW Paul did not warn anyone not to observe God's holy days. In fact just the opposite. As I pointed out Passover and Pentecost were ALWAYS celebrated by Christians and there is evidence the other feasts were as well.

There's nothing to get hung up on imo. It is all very simple to me. God gave us something as a blessing so our family receives it in Jesus' name! lol

Esaias · #7 10-06-2014, 11:44 PM

Paul said "let us keep the feast" in reference to Passover and Unleavened Bread. He also makes a curious statement in Colossians 2:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The grammar indicates the Colossians were the ones observing the holydays, new moons, sabbath days etc. Read it carefully and you will see this. They were being afflicted by persons coming in and judging them in respect of these things. They weren't being judged in NOT keeping them, but in keeping them.

Paul says these things are a shadow of things to come. He said that several decades AFTER our Lord's ascension to heaven. Thus when Paul said what he said these shadows were still shadows of yet-future events.

Shadows are "done away" when the thing they signify arrives. If that thing has not yet arrived then the shadow still points forward to the fulfillment.

He does not declare a contrast between the shadows of holy days etc as opposed the substance of Jesus Christ. He is not saying the holy days are shadows but Jesus is the substance. Read it closely! The word "is" is italicised - it is not in the Greek. It reads "but the body of Christ." Read closely! lol

He is saying let no man judge you BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. Meaning the Judaisers and gnotics were not to be listened to but rather the faith and practice of the apostolic churches was to be kept to and followed.

The term "body" is nowhere used in scripture as a substitute for "substance". The "Body of Christ" is Paul's common designation of the church. In fact, to say something is a shadow of future events but the body is of Christ makes little sense grammatically. The Greek however is pretty clear. "But the body of Christ" is the counterpoint answering to "let no man judge you" and not to "which things are a shadow of things coming".

Sean · #8 10-07-2014, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul said "let us keep the feast" in reference to Passover and Unleavened Bread. He also makes a curious statement in Colossians 2:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The grammar indicates the Colossians were the ones observing the holydays, new moons, sabbath days etc. Read it carefully and you will see this. They were being afflicted by persons coming in and judging them in respect of these things. They weren't being judged in NOT keeping them, but in keeping them.

Paul says these things are a shadow of things to come. He said that several decades AFTER our Lord's ascension to heaven. Thus when Paul said what he said these shadows were still shadows of yet-future events.

Shadows are "done away" when the thing they signify arrives. If that thing has not yet arrived then the shadow still points forward to the fulfillment.

He does not declare a contrast between the shadows of holy days etc as opposed the substance of Jesus Christ. He is not saying the holy days are shadows but Jesus is the substance. Read it closely! The word "is" is italicised - it is not in the Greek. It reads "but the body of Christ." Read closely! lol

He is saying let no man judge you BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. Meaning the Judaisers and gnotics were not to be listened to but rather the faith and practice of the apostolic churches was to be kept to and followed.

The term "body" is nowhere used in scripture as a substitute for "substance". The "Body of Christ" is Paul's common designation of the church. In fact, to say something is a shadow of future events but the body is of Christ makes little sense grammatically. The Greek however is pretty clear. "But the body of Christ" is the counterpoint answering to "let no man judge you" and not to "which things are a shadow of things coming".

Amen, why should we hide in the shadows when we can stand in the SON

Esaias · #9 10-07-2014, 12:01 AM

In regards to Romans and Paul's discussion of the one who regards the day and one who does not...

Nowhere is "sabbath" or "holy day" mentioned. The issue is in regards to voluntary fast days. See this:

http://www.come2jesus.com.au/romans14.htm

mfblume · #10 10-09-2014, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

In regards to Romans and Paul's discussion of the one who regards the day and one who does not...

Nowhere is "sabbath" or "holy day" mentioned. The issue is in regards to voluntary fast days. See this:

http://www.come2jesus.com.au/romans14.htm

Reference to Regarding a day does not have to actually mention the sabbath for it to intend it. It is referring to considering any day to be holy. In order to say a day is holy you have to REGARD it. Giving regard to a day is the same thing. It is "regarded" as holy, or else there is no regard to the day. Anyone who keeps sabbath "regards" the seventh day.

What else would it be regarded as? The context includes eating certain foods which is an Old Testament Law issue. Hence, the DAY is a Law issue as well. What other DAYS would be regarded in Law if not holy ones?