Hank Hanergraaff joins a cult

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

sticking my neck way out here, knowing you all can debate me under the rug, but I feel like some have a bitter spirit, maybe because they were hurt, so they make a log out of a speck and turn away from brothers and sisters of like precious faith toward Trinitarians and those who preach doctrine that is much father away from the truth then those they are turning away from.

Thanks for your concern, but you are a bit misguided here. I stand by my belief that the OP movement need not glory in its "truth" (and I do believe they have much truth other churches need) while holding onto error that it just as twisted as that in Trinitarian churches. Yes, I'm done defending what is indefensible.

As for the godhead issue. As Dr. Seagraves said, we need to stop claiming Trinitarians believe in 3 Gods. While it is perfectly in order to point out to Trinitarians how the way they define the one God is lacking, it does not nothing but alienate them by accusing them of being tritheists. In all the years I was in Trinitarian ranks, I heard ONE preacher say something from the pulpit that was genuinely tritheistic. He was a guest evangelist and after he left, the host pastor apologized from the pulpit for that evangelist's remarks and clarified to his congregation that the Church of God "does not believe there are 3 Gods".

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Thanks for your concern, but you are a bit misguided here. I stand by my belief that the OP movement need not glory in its "truth" (and I do believe they have much truth other churches need) while holding onto error that it just as twisted as that in Trinitarian churches. Yes, I'm done defending what is indefensible.

As for the godhead issue. As Dr. Seagraves said, we need to stop claiming Trinitarians believe in 3 Gods. While it is perfectly in order to point out to Trinitarians how the way they define the one God is lacking, it does not nothing but alienate them by accusing them of being tritheists. In all the years I was in Trinitarian ranks, I heard ONE preacher say something from the pulpit that was genuinely tritheistic. He was a guest evangelist and after he left, the host pastor apologized from the pulpit for that evangelist's remarks and clarified to his congregation that the Church of God "does not believe there are 3 Gods".

how do the Trinitarian churches differ in the issues that you think are false doctrine, like asking for tithes, having a pastor, having modern worship music, ect.?

[Michael The Disciple]

As for the godhead issue. As Dr. Seagraves said, we need to stop claiming Trinitarians believe in 3 Gods.

Do you think there is a difference in saying they teach 3 Gods and saying they teach 3 GOD PERSONS?

We know for sure they teach this. They say it in various ways.

Three persons in one God.

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Ghost.

Each one distinct from the other.

3 co equal co eternal persons each one God yet distinct from the other 2.

Now I have heard both these definitions MANY times. So I see 3 Gods or 3 God persons who are distinct from each other as really the same thing.

As far as other errors in the Apostolic Churches I agree. Yet Oneness and Trinity IMO are not just semantics.

[Aquila]

A good friend of mine teaches Apologetics at a local university. He explained that in no way does the Trinity teach three Gods. He admitted that it is based on Greek notions of ontology. And if memory serves me correctly, this is how it differs from teaching three Gods.

There is only one God who is only one, substance. The very essence (or essential nature) of this substance is divine, meaning the nature of this substance is revealed as eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Eternally manifest within this single substance ("manifest", in the sense of having been revealed) are three eternal "persons" (in the sense of personas) that perfectly reveal the personal nature of God in three distinct (but not separate in substance) ways through which we might know Him. Through these eternal "persons" we know God as Father, the Creator of all things, the fountainhead of the godhead. We know God as the Son, our kinsman redeemer. And we know God as the Holy Spirit, who is invisibly at work in our lives, the world, and the church. These persons are distinct (but not separate in substance) in their existence, meaning that they can and do interact with one another. The Father is transcendent. The Son (or Logos) is eternally emanated from the Father into temporal reality. The Spirit is invisibly active throughout. This revelation is progressive, meaning it wasn't definitively described in Scripture, nor realized, until adequate study of the Scriptures and their implications were deeply and profoundly considered. All three persons therefore perfectly reflect the full nature of the single divine substance we know as God. And so, we know God as our Father, our Redeemer, and our Helper from all eternity.

Three Gods would be composed of three separate and unique substances. The very essence of each of the three substances would be divine. And within each substance, a single person (or persona) would reveal the personal nature of each individual substance. As a result, each substance would be a separate and unique divine being.

That's how the difference between Trinitarianism and tri-theism was explained to me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You might want to ask that same question to our fellow Apostolics whose churches are riddled with error and false doctrines like tithing, pastor worship, rock concerts instead of congregational worship, more money for 3/4 empty buildings instead of for missions, no evangelism etc. You must be fair here. We will be held to the same standard by God that you are holding Trinitarians to. The average Apostolic church member I know has been conditioned to be a perpetual neophyte by wrong teaching concerning pastoral authority. If their pastor was to be ripped from their life, they would not know how to survive.

i'm sorry, but I was referring to Trinitarian vs One God, and soteriology. Nnt tithing, not eschatology, not church government. OK, let's look at tithing. Eastern Greek Orthodox don't believe in tithing. Eastern Greek Orthodox build huge buildings which are filled with people. Missions? They are all over the world. Even in places where there isn't even one Charismatic/Pentecostal, or One God Apostolic church. Serbian Orthodox, Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch, and the other Catholics and Orthodox are still in the birthplace of Christ. So far that cult (as the thread is so named) looking pretty good by the standard you set in your above post to me.



Pastoral worship? That is found in every religion and ideology. Eastern Orthodox Church you kiss the hand of the priest. But then again you were to kiss the hand of everyone you were to show respect. In India, the Guru, Swamiji, and Maharishi their feet were to be touched, and sometimes, depending on one's devotion...kiss. In the story of Ram, the ferry man is asked to carry Ram, his brother and wife across the lake. The ferry man refuses money, but instead wants to wash Ram's feet. The ferry man does this, but then to show even more obeisance, he then drinks the water which he washed Ram's feet. We recoil at that, but a woman washes the feet of Jesus with her tears, anoints his head, and dries the feet with her hair. The host of the house "Simon" had no problem with Jesus being treated this way, the problem was who was the person administrating the anointment. It was customary for these people to anoint their guests, kiss their guests, wash the feet of their guests. Jesus takes the place of the servant and washes the feet of his followers.

Worship the pastor, isn't found in the Ministerial Manual of the UPCI. So, that isn't a teaching within the UPCI. Do people and ministers get into places where that happens. Of course, to varying degrees.

My brother and friend, I have been there and done that with Trinitarians. We aren't the first choice to take to the senior prom. We are heretics to them. In our soteriology, in our theology. Trying to find a bridge to bring us together is only done through them converting. Or we converting to them. Dr James White, Walter Martin, Jimmy Swaggart, and Matt Slick have all let us know we aren't part of them.

Ever been called Jesus Only?

Three gods all working together as in a unified effort?

The father is god, the son is god, the Holy Ghost is god.
Three divine persons all coequal, coexisting, and coeternal.
The father is NOT the son, the son is NOT the Holy Ghost.

I can tell that to a Trinitarian minister and he will smile as wide as a mule eating briars.

But what I just posted is in no way ONE GOD.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

how do the Trinitarian churches differ in the issues that you think are false doctrine, like asking for tithes, having a pastor, having modern worship music, ect.?

Just as bad as us.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Oneness and Trinity IMO are not just semantics.

Definitely not semantics.

It is just the conclusion of plain logic.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

i'm sorry, but I was referring to Trinitarian vs One God, and soteriology. Nnt tithing, not eschatology, not church government. OK, let's look at tithing. Eastern Greek Orthodox don't believe in tithing. Eastern Greek Orthodox build huge buildings which are filled with people. Missions? They are all over the world. Even in places where there isn't even one Charismatic/Pentecostal, or One God Apostolic church. Serbian Orthodox, Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch, and the other Catholics and Orthodox are still in the birthplace of Christ. So far that cult (as the thread is so named) looking pretty good by the standard you set in your above post to me.



Pastoral worship? That is found in every religion and ideology. Eastern Orthodox Church you kiss the hand of the priest. But then again you were to kiss the hand of everyone you were to show respect. In India, the Guru, Swamiji, and Maharishi their feet were to be touched, and sometimes, depending on one's devotion...kiss. In the story of Ram, the ferry man is asked to carry Ram, his brother and wife across the lake. The ferry man refuses money, but instead wants to wash Ram's feet. The ferry man does this, but then to show even more obeisance, he then drinks the water which he washed Ram's feet. We recoil at that, but a woman washes the feet of Jesus with her tears, anoints his head, and dries the feet with her hair. The host of the house "Simon" had no problem with Jesus being treated this way, the problem was who was the person administrating the anointment. It was customary for these people to anoint their guests, kiss their guests, wash the feet of their guests. Jesus takes the place of the servant and washes the feet of his followers.

Worship the pastor, isn't found in the Ministerial Manual of the UPCI. So, that isn't a teaching within the UPCI. Do people and ministers get into places where that happens. Of course, to varying degrees.

My brother and friend, I have been there and done that with Trinitarians. We aren't the first choice to take to the senior prom. We are heretics to them. In our soteriology, in our theology. Trying to find a bridge to bring us together is only done through them converting. Or we converting to them. Dr James White, Walter Martin, Jimmy Swaggart, and Matt Slick have all let us know we aren't part of them.

Ever been called Jesus Only?

Three gods all working together as in a unified effort?

The father is god, the son is god, the Holy Ghost is god.
Three divine persons all coequal, coexisting, and coeternal.
The father is NOT the son, the son is NOT the Holy Ghost.

I can tell that to a Trinitarian minister and he will smile as wide as a mule eating briars.

But what I just posted is in no way ONE GOD.

In 1993 I publically announced my intention to leave the Assemblies of God and to join the UPCI. I've been called allot of things, but never by anyone but a handful of zealots. In retrospect, I wish I had just gone independent.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Just as bad as us.

Please don't get offended, this isn't personal.

But, there is an Eastern Orthodox Church in your area just waiting to tell you why.

There is a Orthodox or Labavitch Chabadnik in your area willing to tell you why.

Last but not least, there is a local Atheist just chafing at the bit to tell you why.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

In 1993 I publically announced my intention to leave the Assemblies of God and to join the UPCI. I've been called allot of things, but never by anyone but a handful of zealots. In retrospect, I wish I had just gone independent.

My brother, are you still in the UPCI?