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  #81  
Old 01-06-2019, 12:05 AM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
The Eusebian Form of Matthew 28:19 - A Little Analysis -
James Snapp - July 17, 2010
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ns/topics/5900

============================

I've learned to never trust your scholarship.

Steven
Most of the information James Snapp lists has been already debunked and shown to be erroneous.

I also have learned to never trust your scholarship.
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  #82  
Old 01-06-2019, 03:41 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
You mentioned thousands of manuscripts, but it would not matter if there were millions of such manuscripts, because if the first text has been changed all the ones following the first will also have that change.

Just like Jesus said, the blind following the blind. they will all fall into the ditch.
I take it you don't read Braille, either?
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  #83  
Old 01-06-2019, 08:37 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
You mentioned thousands of manuscripts, but it would not matter if there were millions of such manuscripts, because if the first text has been changed all the ones following the first will also have that change.
So, really the bottom line is that you can not trust and believe with conviction one verse in your Bible.

After all, anything might have been changed in one of the early copies.
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  #84  
Old 01-06-2019, 08:41 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Most of the information James Snapp lists has been already debunked and shown to be erroneous.
Total nonsense.
The quotes are valid.

You made a couple of silly comments.

e.g. you attacked Cyprian.
Which is absurd, because he quotes the Bible accurately and copiously.

Yet you laud the Middle Ages anti-missionary unbeliever Shem Tob.

Steven
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  #85  
Old 01-06-2019, 10:21 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
So, really the bottom line is that you can not trust and believe with conviction one verse in your Bible.

After all, anything might have been changed in one of the early copies.
Here are statements from two catholic teachers.
Rev. Prof. Dr hab. Szymon Drzyżdżyk
Dr. Aleksandra Brzemia-Bonarek (Pontifical University of John Paul II in Krakow)

From the article "From Baptism in the Name of Jesus to Baptism in the Name of the Holy Trinity"

p. 167:
It must be assumed that the trinitarian formula of baptism is indeed an interpolation of this passage of the Gospel. So, those scholars who say that the closest to historical truth is the literal interpretation of the words "baptism in the name of (Lord) Jesus" in the book of Acts have been right. For centuries, the tradition conveyed to one another was convinced of the fact that the apostles did indeed baptize in the name of Jesus.

p. 168
The liturgical practice of the Church and its close, even symbiotic relationship with the early Christian doctrine could first result in a gloss (a written note in the margin prescribed in this form) and then the recording of that gloss. The next step was to re-edit the formula of baptism contained in the missionary mandate of Christ. The question remains how early this treatment was.

p. 170
However, if we accept a border date, we can say that the impulse for universal application of the formula of the trinitarian baptism was the Council of Nicaea (in 325). From the beginning, the text of the baptismal formula was to present as much as possible of the faith and its content. The trinitarian invocation in the baptismal formula fulfilled this role, especially in view of the Arian controversies intensified in the Fourth and last century. Therefore, the second half of the fourth century should be regarded as a time of decline in the co-existence of Christocentric and Trinitarian baptismal formulas and their recognition as equivalent.

These people are catholic experts and teachers, so they themselves admit the trinitarian phrase is an interpolation. Yet you insist it is not.
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  #86  
Old 01-07-2019, 08:04 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Here are statements from two catholic teachers.
This cherry-picked Catholic "scholarship" is what you go to when you can not deal with the ECW quotes and the manuscript evidences.

Have the Catholics mangled any of their various versions by removing the traditional text?
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  #87  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:35 PM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

Statements by theologians is impressive.

But translators focus on actual manuscripts of the literature of the NT.

There are no Greek manuscripts of Matthew with the variant ending some insist should be there.
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  #88  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:15 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Total nonsense.
The quotes are valid.

You made a couple of silly comments.

e.g. you attacked Cyprian.
Which is absurd, because he quotes the Bible accurately and copiously.

Yet you laud the Middle Ages anti-missionary unbeliever Shem Tob.

Steven
about Cyprian, here is some information on him.

Pope Stephen called Cyprian the bishop of Carthage “a false Christ and a false apostle, and a deceitful worker” and excommunicated him for his opposition to baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, he also disfellowship Firmilian bishop of Caesarea for he also refused to accept baptism in Jesus’ name as valid. English Historical Review (1910) Newly discovered letters of Dionysius of Alexandria to the Popes Stephen and Xystus.


Note: Both Popes Stephen and Xystus accepted baptism in the name of Jesus as valid. The Golden Legend: The Life of Saint Calixtus (Xystus) has the following word: “Baptize me in the name of Jesu Christ, which hath taken me by the hand and lifted me up. Then came Calixtus and baptized her and her husband”.

Cyprian: The bishop of Carthage, in 256 AD in his Epistles 72 and 73 mentions that Marcion baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. He complained that Pope Stephen accepted heretics without requiring them to be rebaptized, “even those that came from him (Marcion) did not need to be baptized, because they seemed to have been already baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” And also mentions that Patripassians, Anthropians, Valentinians, Apelletians, Ophites, and other “heretics” baptized in similar manner. He repeats the charge in his epistle 73 “they who are baptized anywhere and anyhow, in the name of Jesus Christ”, and appears to indicate that not only Marcion baptized in the name of Jesus but also Valentinus, Apelles and others did so. The arguments between him and Pope Stephen became so bitter and antagonistic that he was excommunicated.
The writings of Cyprian clearly confirm that baptism in the name of Jesus was the oldest and most common baptism and that the traditional baptism was the new innovation.

Because Cyprian considered baptism in the name of Jesus to be an age old error, he was a bitter enemy of baptism in the name of Jesus and often mentions baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ as a popular “heresy” that needed to be destroyed. In much anger Cyprian mentions that there were thousands of heretics who ‘baptized in the name of Christ alone’. And we do know that Cyprian combated this shorter formula that was used in certain quarters, in an attempt to stamp it out. The Byzantine Fathers
of the Fifth Century (1933) by Historian and theologian Georges Florovsky.
In September 256 AD Cyprian held the third synod in Carthage which rejected baptism in the name of Christ as valid. This caused the relations of the Roman and African Churches to become severely strained. A library of the Fathers: The Epistles of Saint Cyprian (1868), Cyprian and Roman Carthage (2010) by Professor of early Christianity Allen Brent. Doctor of Theology Thomas Kelly Cheyne, Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), Cyprian: His Life, His Times, His Work (1897) by Archbishop of Canterbury Edward White Benson.

The letters of St. Cyprian were published in Rome in 1471, quite a long time from the actual events, hardly a reliable document at all. (Almost 1,200 years of distance from the 3rd century). Modified text, hmm sounds familiar. Charges of forgeries in Cyprian’s works are quite abundant. Cyprian: His Life, His Times, His Work (1897) by Edward White Benson, Archbishop of Canterbury.
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  #89  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:21 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Have the Catholics mangled any of their various versions by removing the traditional text?
The doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of the Catholic church, they would never think of removing that text no matter how much evidence there is that it is an interpolation. Without this text in Matthew the whole trinity doctrine falls apart.
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  #90  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:24 PM
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Re: Gospels of Matthew without Trinitarian ending

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Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Statements by theologians is impressive.

But translators focus on actual manuscripts of the literature of the NT.

There are no Greek manuscripts of Matthew with the variant ending some insist should be there.
We are not worried about no Greek manuscripts of Matthew with the variant ending.

We look at the overall evidence.
and preponderance of evidence points to it being mistranslated from the Hebrew to the Greek, so if the first Greek was mistranslated all the texts following the Greek would also be mistranslated.
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