Forgiveness or Remission?

[good samaritan]

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul here discussed how carnal people where following the different personalities of the church in their day. Evidently these carnal people where associating themselves to who it was that baptized them. Paul made the statement that he wasn’t called to baptize, but to preach, and that he had baptized very few people. Evidently Paul felt he would preach and then just leave everyone in their sins??? Instead, IMO Paul intrusted that others in the body would later perform baptism upon the converts that he made.

I say this over and over again! I believe that we must baptized in Jesus name and it is not optional. Where we differ is that I believe forgiveness takes place when you ask in repentance. God discerns the heart of the repentant and therefore Gods forgives accordingly as he sees fit. Thus the reason that I initially said forgiveness is the work of God alone. We cannot manipulate him through baptism, but we must have true repentance. Just like you and I, we would not want to forgive someone we know was not sorry. Even if they apologized and followed few instructions. God literally knows what is in our hearts.

[Esaias]

Now, it is time for the other side to present a simple Bible study. I have done such, I have presented Bible passages that teach what I am saying here. Now it is time for the other side (especially the pastor) to present a simple straightforward Bible study establishing their doctrine (teaching):

We need a Bible study that does the following:

1. Proves that the Bible teaches a difference between remission and forgiveness, and what that difference is.

2. Prove that the Bible teaches people receive forgiveness of sins before being baptised.

There's a few other things that need to be proven by Scripture, but we can start with these two, since the others depend on how the first two go.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, it is time for the other side to present a simple Bible study. I have done such, I have presented Bible passages that teach what I am saying here. Now it is time for the other side (especially the pastor) to present a simple straightforward Bible study establishing their doctrine (teaching):

We need a Bible study that does the following:

1. Proves that the Bible teaches a difference between remission and forgiveness, and what that difference is.

2. Prove that the Bible teaches people receive forgiveness of sins before being baptised.

There's a few other things that need to be proven by Scripture, but we can start with these two, since the others depend on how the first two go.

Anyone?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyone?

It's hard for people to give up their pagan, Roman, or Pentecostal traditions even as truth is staring them in the face. It's sad really.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It's hard for people to give up their pagan, Roman, or Pentecostal traditions even as truth is staring them in the face. It's sad really.

You are very proud. I have been meaning to respond, but have not the time at the moment. I do have a life outside of AFF.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

You are very proud. I have been meaning to respond, but have not the time at the moment. I do have a life outside of AFF.

I have learned a lot from AFF, and will continue to learn. I do think the church in general carries a lot of pagan, Roman and Pentecostal traditions, like pagan holidays, and not being able to see that in the KJV, aphesis, strong's G863 is translated as remission and forgiveness.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄφεσις áphesis, af'-es-is; from G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon:—deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 17x
The KJV translates Strong's G859 in the following manner: remission (9x), forgiveness (6x), deliverance (1x), liberty (1x).

I apologize for offending you.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It's hard for people to give up their pagan, Roman, or Pentecostal traditions even as truth is staring them in the face. It's sad really.

If a person has truth, there is no reason to post disparaging remarks against the other side. If you feel people on AFF are a bunch of heretics that you are wasting your time having dialogue, why waste your time. I really try to post things with meekness. I am subject to be wrong like anyone else on here. If I don’t agree, I continue to discuss, but I am not posting out of anger or offended at anyone who doesn’t agree with my point of view.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1. Proves that the Bible teaches a difference between remission and forgiveness, and what that difference is.

I agree with you that there is no difference. I suppose it's unfortunate the KJV translators used different words to translate one Greek word. In the original preface to their translation, which is almost never included in KJVs today, they note that they felt no need to use only one English word for each Greek (or Hebrew) word.

2. Prove that the Bible teaches people receive forgiveness of sins before being baptised.

The experience of Cornelius and those with him, I believe, shows that people can be forgiven before being baptized. In Acts 15, Peter is arguing against those Jewish believers who were saying that Gentile believers had to be circumcised to be saved, and he uses Cornelius's experience to show that God had fully accepted the Gentiles, as Gentiles, just as much as he had accepted the Jews, and what proved this was him pouring out the Spirit upon them.

In 15.8-9, Peter says, "8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith."

What showed that God had made no distinction between them and Jewish believers and that he had cleansed their hearts by faith was him giving them the Spirit. What would their hearts be cleansed of but their sins? This occurred before they were baptized.

I agree with you that, in the Book of Acts, Cornelius's experience of receiving the Spirit before baptism is the exception to the rule. And so, normally baptism is the place where someone is forgiven, but I think that Cornelius's experience shows that God can forgive apart from baptism in circumstances like his.

I would add that, when we receive the Spirit in conversion, the Spirit sanctifies us, that is, makes us holy and sets us apart for relationship with God. For example, Paul says in 2 Thess 2.13, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

How could the Spirit's sanctifying work, his making us holy work, not include the removal of our sin?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I agree with you that there is no difference. I suppose it's unfortunate the KJV translators used different words to translate one Greek word. In the original preface to their translation, which is almost never included in KJVs today, they note that they felt no need to use only one English word for each Greek (or Hebrew) word.



The experience of Cornelius and those with him, I believe, shows that people can be forgiven before being baptized. In Acts 15, Peter is arguing against those Jewish believers who were saying that Gentile believers had to be circumcised to be saved, and he uses Cornelius's experience to show that God had fully accepted the Gentiles, as Gentiles, just as much as he had accepted the Jews, and what proved this was him pouring out the Spirit upon them.

In 15.8-9, Peter says, "8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith."

What showed that God had made no distinction between them and Jewish believers and that he had cleansed their hearts by faith was him giving them the Spirit. What would their hearts be cleansed of but their sins? This occurred before they were baptized.

I agree with you that, in the Book of Acts, Cornelius's experience of receiving the Spirit before baptism is the exception to the rule. And so, normally baptism is the place where someone is forgiven, but I think that Cornelius's experience shows that God can forgive apart from baptism in circumstances like his.

I would add that, when we receive the Spirit in conversion, the Spirit sanctifies us, that is, makes us holy and sets us apart for relationship with God. For example, Paul says in 2 Thess 2.13, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

How could the Spirit's sanctifying work, his making us holy work, not include the removal of our sin?

Old testament saints received the Spirit of God even before the cross. Some more extreme examples: Saul was filled of the Spirit and "prophesied" even when he was persecuting David; Balaam filled with the Spirit prophesied blessing to Israel even when his heart was not right before God; David, apparently, didn't lose the Spirit of God in him after committing the adultery since during repentance he was asking God to not take away his Spirit from his life. I definitely believe that those that do not repent eventually will lose the Spirit, btw, but that's not the topic here.

God may give you his Spirit even before you are fully and legally forgiven to the point of giving you entrance to everlasting life. The phrase "having cleansed their hearts by faith" may be also referring to the entire experience as a whole, including baptism in Jesus name, and not necessarily to only the infilling of the Spirit; making the evidence of the Spirit the witness of the acceptance, and the cleaning of the heart, a reference to the end result which included the baptism (the full experience).
In fact, they received the Spirit right after Peter said: "Act 10:43 NKJV - (43) "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.""

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by coksiw

The phrase "having cleansed their hearts by faith" may be also referring to the entire experience as a whole, including baptism in Jesus name, and not necessarily to only the infilling of the Spirit; making the evidence of the Spirit the witness of the acceptance, and the cleaning of the heart, a reference to the end result which included the baptism (the full experience).

Well, I don't the context will allow us to say that it's referring to their whole experience, including their baptism. Everything Peter says in Acts 15 about the Gentiles’ hearts is explicitly connected with God pouring out the Spirit on them. Peter said that he preached the gospel to them and they believed. How did he know they believed? Because, when he preached the gospel to them, God knew their hearts—he knew they had come to faith—and at once poured out his Spirit on them in response to their faith. God knew their hearts and so cleansed their hearts. All this explicitly happened before they were baptized.

It’s important to note that Peter never mentions baptizing them in his argument. And there's a reason for that. Just like in Acts 11, when he had to defend himself against some Jewish Christians who were attacking him for going to the Gentiles in the first place, Peter focuses exclusively on what God had done. It wouldn't have strengthened his argument against his opponents to focus on anything he had done—like baptizing Cornelius—so Peter mentions only God’s deeds to refute his opponents. God’s actions had brought about the cleansing of their hearts; it had nothing to do with Peter baptizing them. In cleansing them and making no distinction between them and Jewish believers when he poured his Spirit out upon them, God proved he had accepted them as they were without them having to be circumcised.

In fact, they received the Spirit right after Peter said: "Act 10:43 NKJV - (43) "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.""

Right, and this shows they were cleansed of sin before their baptisms. Peter’s promise was that whoever comes to faith in Christ will have their sins forgiven and removed. Their receiving the Spirit showed they had come to faith in Christ and had received this forgiveness. God knew their heart and so cleansed their heart of sin as he poured out the Spirit on them.

When God poured out the Spirit on them, we know from other passages of Scripture that at that moment they were sanctified by the Spirit and born of the Spirit and raised from the dead by the Spirit. A person cannot experience being made holy and being given new life by the Spirit while what had made them unholy and in need of new life in the first place, their sin, still remains. To come to life, what had caused death had to be removed. To be made holy, what had defiled had to be cleansed.