Forgiveness or Remission?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

God does not inhabit a temple not cleansed by the blood. The house of Cornelius were inhabited/filled with the Holy Ghost.

So to yo, Do you believe they were still in their sins?

According to this line of reasoning, Cornelius and company could not receive the Holy Ghost unless they were "cleansed". Since they received the Holy Ghost before being baptised, they were cleansed before being baptised. Since cleansing (according to this line of reasoning) is equivalent to having sins forgiven, they had their sins forgiven prior to being baptised.

So, James, I have a few questions for you.

1. When were they cleansed? When did they receive forgiveness of sins? Peter preached the Gospel, and while he was still speaking they all got the Holy ghost. There was no altar call, there was no "decision", no "public profession of Christ", no "season of prayer". So when did they receive forgiveness of sins? When were they "cleansed"?

2. Before this meeting, Peter was given a vision of all sorts of animals, and told to kill and eat them. He said he would not eat that which was unclean or common, and was told "Do not call common what God has cleansed". This of course had nothing to do with hamhocks and shrimp gumbo, but everything to do with gentiles being preached to:

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
(Act 10:28)

So apparently Cornelius and the gentiles were cleansed before Peter ever preached the Gospel to them? How is this possible? Do you believe people are cleansed before even hearing the Gospel?

Or is it possible you have mistaken ideas about all this stuff?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyone?

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon putting our faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith. The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We don’t force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In a nutshell we are probably not even in disagreement on the issue, but simply have a difference of faith explanation.

That leads to another question:

Can a person be saved without baptism?

Let me answer that with a question:

If we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord and savior, must we obey?

Yes, of course.

In the case of deathbed conversions, that is Gods decision. He is the one we will all stand before.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon putting our faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

That is not the question in this discussion. It is rather "Where does the Bible teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission, and Where does the Bible teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

Yes, because it is the mechanism in which God washes away our sins through faith in Christ, because it is in baptism that we identify with His death and resurrection. Baptism is the means by which we exercise faith in His atonement and identify Him as our substitute, it is how we "trust in Jesus".

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We don’t force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith in Jesus to be pardoned is dead without baptism into His name. I think you inadvertently made my case for me.

In any event, I do not see where you even addressed the alleged Biblical differences between forgiveness and remission, nor do I see where you showed Christian conversions in which people were forgiven before being baptized.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?



How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?



How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



That is not the question in this discussion. It is rather "Where does the Bible teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission, and Where does the Bible teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



Yes, because it is the mechanism in which God washes away our sins through faith in Christ, because it is in baptism that we identify with His death and resurrection. Baptism is the means by which we exercise faith in His atonement and identify Him as our substitute, it is how we "trust in Jesus".



Faith in Jesus to be pardoned is dead without baptism into His name. I think you inadvertently made my case for me.

In any event, I do not see where you even addressed the alleged Biblical differences between forgiveness and remission, nor do I see where you showed Christian conversions in which people were forgiven before being baptized.

Maybe you need to go back and follow the discussion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Maybe you need to go back and follow the discussion.

I asked for a Bible study showing the following:

"The Bible teaches there is a difference between forgiveness and remission."

And

"The Bible teaches that people are forgiven prior to baptism."

You didn't touch hide nor hair of the first. And for the second you demonstrated "The Bible teaches faith is necessary to be forgiven", which is admirable and certainly true, BUT it is also not in dispute here.

The one passage you cited that might bear on the issue was that of the cripple let down through the roof. But, Jesus hadn't even died yet so using your logic (as pertaining to the issue of forgiveness prior to being baptised) all you've actually shown is that people could be forgiven prior to the cross.

Also, as a side note, did you notice that it says "When He saw THEIR faith..."? It was THEIR faith that prompted Him to declare the cripple's sins were forgiven.

But back to the point, you didn't demonstrate what was asked, even though your post was a direct response to the request.

[good samaritan]

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven before baptism?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

This man's sins where forgiven after Jesus saw "their" faith not after his baptism. Note: The use of "their" demonstrates that all who where involved in this scenario had faith, but the crippled man's faith would seem to be a part of that company. Nevertheless, the key to forgiveness was associated with faith with no mention of baptism.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon putting our faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was declared righteous for his faith in God. The only way to be righteous is to be forgiven and the only way to be forgiven is by the blood. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of Sins.

Note: It doesn't say Abraham was righteous by circumcision. Instead, only because he believed God. Abraham's true belief caused him to live a life of obedience. Circumcision was a major deal for an adult who lived in times before modern medical practice. His faith was not easy believism, but it was genuine.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This next part I have been trying to use caution, because baptism is definitely a part of our conversion. We cannot forgo baptism.

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith. The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We don’t force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In a nutshell we are probably not even in disagreement on the issue, but simply have a difference of faith explanation.

That leads to another question:

Can a person be saved without baptism?

Let me answer that with a question:

If we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord and savior, must we obey?

Yes, of course.

In the case of deathbed conversions, that is Gods decision. He is the one we will all stand before.

Forgiveness/remission is received the moment you put your faith in Jesus followed by repentance and baptism.

In another post someone asked the question: "when is the blood applied?"

The blood was applied from Calvary 2,000 years ago. We are only recipient of its benefit by putting our faith in that blood sacrifice of Jesus.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[diakonos]

*Just a side note*
I just recently heard, a "big wig" in the baptist organization stated publicly that baptists are going to return to their Holy Ghost speaking in Tongues heritage.... Things looks like it's going to get interesting.

Name, please.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Name, please.

https://youtu.be/EF7nDDHU0bw

It starts at the 1 hour and 59 minute mark, and goes for about 5 minutes.

[Steven Avery]

Today, coming out of a textual discussion, I was reading from the Erasmus letter countering:

Jacques Lefèvre - (c.1455–1536)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques...27%C3%89taples,

and noticed that the distinction of remission and forgiveness was apparently a controversy in the 1500s. This is in a translation of Erasmus from Latin to English, using just the pages available in Google books, and noticing many fascinating elements to their discussion.

========================

Controversies (1997)
Apology against Jacques Lefevre d'Etaples
Apologia ad lacobum Fabrum Stapulensem
translated by Howard Jones
and annotated by Guy Bedouelle
https://books.google.com/books?id=DjFXAJbzlEsC&pg=PA90

Those who are now howling in criticism because in the Lord's Prayer I have had the temerity to change 'forgive us our debts' to 'remit our debts,' 358 ...

358 The controversy set Erasmus and Thomas More, on the one side, against John Batmanson, on the other (Rummel Catholic Critics 1 118-19).

========================

There are a number of interesting elements in the Erasmus-LeFevre back and forth.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Today, coming out of a textual discussion, I was reading from the Erasmus letter countering:

Jacques Lefèvre - (c.1455–1536)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques...27%C3%89taples,

and noticed that the distinction of remission and forgiveness was apparently a controversy in the 1500s. This is in a translation of Erasmus from Latin to English, using just the pages available in Google books, and noticing many fascinating elements to their discussion.

========================

Controversies (1997)
Apology against Jacques Lefevre d'Etaples
Apologia ad lacobum Fabrum Stapulensem
translated by Howard Jones
and annotated by Guy Bedouelle
https://books.google.com/books?id=DjFXAJbzlEsC&pg=PA90

Those who are now howling in criticism because in the Lord's Prayer I have had the temerity to change 'forgive us our debts' to 'remit our debts,' 358 ...

358 The controversy set Erasmus and Thomas More, on the one side, against John Batmanson, on the other (Rummel Catholic Critics 1 118-19).

========================

There are a number of interesting elements in the Erasmus-LeFevre back and forth.

I believe that is referring to a paraphrase he did in which he substituted condonare for what he had previously written as remittere (as also the Vulgate). But in another place he uses remittere (I believe in Luke).