Forgiveness or Remission?

[james34]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wow. Not only did you basically copy and paste an article straight from "GotQuestions" without attribution (plagiarism and bad form), but you changed the initial sentence from "in order to get saved" to "in order to have our sin's remitted".

Here's a link to the original article if anyone is interested:

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

Point is , “for” can mean because of, and thanks for posting the link.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wow. Not only did you basically copy and paste an article straight from "GotQuestions" without attribution (plagiarism and bad form), but you changed the initial sentence from "in order to get saved" to "in order to have our sin's remitted".

Here's a link to the original article if anyone is interested:

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

[Barb]

Originally Posted by james34

Why, then, do some come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to have our sin’s remitted ? Often, the discussion of whether or not this passage teaches baptism is required for remittance centers around the Greek word eis that is translated “for” in this passage. Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for remittance are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” assuming that the word translated “for” in this verse means “in order to get.” However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word “for.”

As an example, when one says “Take two aspirin for your headache,” it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean “take two aspirin in order to get your headache,” but instead to “take two aspirin because you already have a headache.” There are three possible meanings of the word “for” that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--“in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,” 2—“because of, as the result of,” or 3—“with regard to.” Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct.

We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for forgiveness /remittance and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”

One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word eis). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12).

I found your post interesting; however, this is what I found a couple of years ago re eis that I kept on file. Nothing has been copied here other than the sources cited; all other comments are my own…

The Greek word eis is a preposition that looks forward to an object. There are those who take eis and teach that in English, in addition to for it can also mean because of, but the problem with that is, I have not been able to find one Greek scholar who translates eis any other way than for the remission of sins...

“The authorities, all of them, bear witness to the fact that eis never looks backward but always forward; that is, it is never rendered ‘because of’ or on ‘account of’ in all the New Testament, and it never had that meaning in any New Testament passage-not one” (Foy E. Wallace Jr., Bullwarks of the Faith, Vol. 2; pg. 50; Public Domain.).

“‘Eis aphesin hamartion,’ to obtain the remission of sins” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon. Public Domain).

“The truth will never suffer by giving to ‘eis’ it’s true significance. When the Campbellites translate ‘in order to’ in Acts 2:38, they translate correctly. ‘In order to declare’ or ‘symbolize’ would be a monstrous translation of ‘eis.’” (J.W. Wilmarth, Baptist scholar. Public Domain).

“I would say the preposition ‘eis’ is to be translated ‘unto,’ that is, ‘in order to secure.’ The preposition indicates the remission of sins is the end to be aimed at in the actions expressed by the predicates ‘repent & be baptized.’” (William R. Harper, President of Chicago University Baptist. Public Domain).

It is worth noting that the above references were made by men who were not Apostolic in doctrine, yet understood the meaning of the Greek word.

To conclude, the word eis can be found 1,750 times in Scripture, and it is never translated because of, certainly not in the Greek NT or any Greek lexicon that I have found.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Barb

I found your post interesting; however, this is what I found a couple of years ago re eis that I kept on file. Nothing has been copied here other than the sources cited; all other comments are my own…

The Greek word eis is a preposition that looks forward to an object. There are those who take eis and teach that in English, in addition to for it can also mean because of, but the problem with that is, I have not been able to find one Greek scholar who translates eis any other way than for the remission of sins...

“The authorities, all of them, bear witness to the fact that eis never looks backward but always forward; that is, it is never rendered ‘because of’ or on ‘account of’ in all the New Testament, and it never had that meaning in any New Testament passage-not one” (Foy E. Wallace Jr., Bullwarks of the Faith, Vol. 2; pg. 50; Public Domain.).

“‘Eis aphesin hamartion,’ to obtain the remission of sins” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon. Public Domain).

“The truth will never suffer by giving to ‘eis’ it’s true significance. When the Campbellites translate ‘in order to’ in Acts 2:38, they translate correctly. ‘In order to declare’ or ‘symbolize’ would be a monstrous translation of ‘eis.’” (J.W. Wilmarth, Baptist scholar. Public Domain).

“I would say the preposition ‘eis’ is to be translated ‘unto,’ that is, ‘in order to secure.’ The preposition indicates the remission of sins is the end to be aimed at in the actions expressed by the predicates ‘repent & be baptized.’” (William R. Harper, President of Chicago University Baptist. Public Domain).

It is worth noting that the above references were made by men who were not Apostolic in doctrine, yet understood the meaning of the Greek word.

To conclude, the word eis can be found 1,750 times in Scripture, and it is never translated because of, certainly not in the Greek NT or any Greek lexicon that I have found.

AMP
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[james34]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

AMP
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Esaias]

Furthermore, regarding the Cornelius episode. It seems to be implied by some that the experience of Cornelius and company is the more common occurrence nowadays. That, like as Cornelius and them received the Holy Ghost and were then baptised afterwards, so too most people nowadays receive the Holy Ghost and then are baptised later. It was stated in this thread something to the effect of "I have seen more people get the Holy Ghost at an altar call than a baptismal service", or something like that. And it is implied that this somehow reflects the Cornelius type of conversion experience.

But does it really? I say NO.

What actually happened with Cornelius?

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(Act 10:44)

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
(Act 11:15)

Peter started preaching, and WHILE HE WAS PREACHING the entire audience got the Holy Ghost. No altar call. No call for a decision. No "invitation". Not even a prayer service. No "tarrying". So let me ask those who think the Cornelius revival meeting is somehow typical of their experiences: How many times have you been in an evangelistic meeting full of unconverted people who all get the Holy Ghost right in the middle of the preacher's preaching? The preacher doesn't even get to tell anyone what to do, doesn't even get a chance to make any kind of invitation whatsoever, the audience just breaks out in Pentecostal worship speaking in tongues and magnifying God.

Does this really describe the "common and typical" evangelistic meetings and experiences you are familiar with?

I would suggest that Cornelius and company are definitely an exceptional event. And I would suggest that those who point to Cornelius as some kind of pattern for their own evangelistic experiences are pointing amiss and know not what they actually do.

[Esaias]

I guess no bible studies will be forthcoming?

[james34]

I used to tie forgiveness/ remission to baptism. But after actually studying the subject, I had to let that go. Apparently the “scholars” don’t have answers either.

[james34]

Read through the old thread by SDG, “remission is different from forgiveness “. https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...ad.php?t=18356


It sheds a lot of light on the subject, it’s a great read.

[good samaritan]

Let me make a straw man case:

Man comes to a home Bible study where he believes on Jesus Christ. He and the minister kneel down in the living room and pray. The man repents of sins and confession is made to God and the Holy Ghost is poured out upon him and he begins to speak in an unknown tongue. After the 2 rise from their time of worship the preacher goes on to establish the need for baptism and the man agrees and says I must be baptized and they decide to go down to a local creek that is not far away. They get in their car to leave and as they pull out another speeding car comes flying down their street and t-bones them right in the new saints door and kills him on impact.

You mean to tell me, without a shadow of a doubt, you KNOW that the person died lost because he did not yet make it to receive water baptism?

I am persuaded that forgiveness is received upon faith and repentance. In such cases I would still have hope, but as I have already stated, forgiveness is God’s to give and he sees the heart.