Random Questions Thread

[shag]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Common sense should tell a women but some do not seem to have it!

Sister Alvear, were you insinuating that I do not have common sense, or did I misunderstand your insinuation? - as it relates to the last few posts of this thread.

Please explain and tell me I’ve misunderstood your intention, and who the “some” is that you are referring to.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Sister Alvear, were you insinuating that I do not have common sense, or did I misunderstand your insinuation? - as it relates to the last few posts of this thread.

Please explain and tell me I’ve misunderstood your intention, and who the “some” is that you are referring to.

Sister Alvear is commenting on one of the posts I made earlier in the thread about modesty. Sis Alvear is the embodiment of kindness.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Sister Alvear is commenting on one of the posts I made earlier in the thread about modesty. Sis Alvear is the embodiment of kindness.

Glad to hear, I did not think that was like her.

[Amanah]

Shag, the Apostle Paul took pleasure in insult because the more our flesh is weakened (humbled as in humility) the more we are useful to the Spirit. So, don't worry about offences. But, Sis Alvear was not being offensive.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
King James Version
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

[Amanah]

This might be correct, if not Esaias can fix it

Here's a summary of Matthew 24:

Matthew 24 can be divided into two main sections:

Section 1: Destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)

- Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem (24:1-2)
- Disciples ask when it will happen and what signs will precede it (24:3)
- Jesus warns of false messiahs, wars, famines, and earthquakes (24:4-8)
- He describes the persecution of believers and the desecration of the Temple (24:9-15)
- He warns of the "abomination of desolation" (24:15-22)
- He prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews (24:23-28)

Section 2: Second Coming

- Jesus shifts focus to His Second Coming (24:29-31)
- He describes the signs preceding His return: celestial disturbances, tribulation, and the rise of false prophets (24:29-31)
- He emphasizes the need for readiness and watchfulness (24:32-35)
- He teaches the parable of the fig tree, illustrating the nearness of His return (24:32-35)
- He concludes with a call to be prepared, as the Son of Man will come at an unexpected hour (24:36-51)

In summary, the first part of Matthew 24 (1-28) concerns the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, while the latter part (29-51) focuses on the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Section 2: Second Coming

- Jesus shifts focus to His Second Coming (24:29-31)
- He describes the signs preceding His return: celestial disturbances, tribulation, and the rise of false prophets (24:29-31)
- He emphasizes the need for readiness and watchfulness (24:32-35)
- He teaches the parable of the fig tree, illustrating the nearness of His return (24:32-35)
- He concludes with a call to be prepared, as the Son of Man will come at an unexpected hour (24:36-51)

Matthew 24:29-32 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a statement about what would be happening "after the tribulation of those days", that is, after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The cosmic disturbances are standard prophetic language referring to the overturning of secular and religious power structures (namely, the overthrow of the priestly and Pharisaic power over the people of God). The "sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory" is a direct reference to the vision in Daniel 7 of the Son of Man coming in the clouds TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS:

Daniel 7:13-14 KJV
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The vision in Daniel is explained thus:

Daniel 7:16-18 KJV
I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. [17] These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. [18] But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

In the vision, one like the Son of Man takes dominion. In the explanation, the saints of the Most High take dominion. See here also:

Daniel 7:19-22 KJV
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; [20] And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. [21] I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; [22] Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And here:

Daniel 7:26-27 KJV
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The vision of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and glory to the Ancient of Days is interpreted by the angel as the victory of the saints of God against the antichristian powers of the world.

Jesus often referred to Himself as "the Son of Man" and in fact told the priests that they were in fact witnessing - at the time of His arrest and trial - the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds with power and glory:

Matthew 26:62-64 KJV
And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? [63] But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. [64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The word "hereafter" means literally "from now on", from this current point in time going forward into the future. They, the priests, would at that time begin to see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of Heaven.

Jesus, dying, and resurrecting, IS the victory of the saints over all enemies. His suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension, was His being presented before the Ancient of Days as the Messiah, and the Lamb of God, and the victorious Anointed One. His death, resurrection, and ascension is the Christological fulfillment of the vision in Daniel chapter 7. It is through His death and His triumph over death that the saints are able to enter the Kingdom and achieve victory. "This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith".

While the ultimate fulfillment of the saints victory is consummated in the final judgment and the destruction of death itself, we have the victory NOW because Christ is the archetypal Israel. It is only by being in Christ that we can lay any claim to being part of Israel.

So "seeing the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds" etc is referencing the nations being made aware that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the victorious one seen in Daniel 7, the fulfillment of prophecy, the Messiah. They would see THE SIGN "of the Son of Man in Heaven coming in the clouds", that is, they would see Daniel 7's fulfillment. He is not talking about people seeing a Jesus-figure in the literal skies.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jewish power was negated, the nations saw the sign that Jesus is the Christ, and His messengers went forth with the Gospel to gather the elect from the four directions. Basically, just like He said. Futurists confound this part of the Olivet prophecy with the return of Jesus and the resurrection of the saints. This is largely due to their unfamiliarity with Bible prophecy in general and prophetic language in particular.


Verses 36-51 are speaking of the return of Jesus. Notice, there is a difference between "the coming of the Son of Man", and the "return" of the Lord, in this prophecy and throughout the teachings of Jesus. The coming of the Lord in judgment upon Jerusalem was clearly taught by Him numerous times, and it was attended with signs that would warn of its impending occurrence. The RETURN of the Lord to resurrect the saints is always spoken of as being sudden and unexpected, with no prior attending warning signs.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Matthew 24:29-32 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a statement about what would be happening "after the tribulation of those days", that is, after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The cosmic disturbances are standard prophetic language referring to the overturning of secular and religious power structures (namely, the overthrow of the priestly and Pharisaic power over the people of God). The "sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory" is a direct reference to the vision in Daniel 7 of the Son of Man coming in the clouds TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS:

Daniel 7:13-14 KJV
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The vision in Daniel is explained thus:

Daniel 7:16-18 KJV
I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. [17] These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. [18] But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

In the vision, one like the Son of Man takes dominion. In the explanation, the saints of the Most High take dominion. See here also:

Daniel 7:19-22 KJV
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; [20] And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. [21] I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; [22] Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And here:

Daniel 7:26-27 KJV
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The vision of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and glory to the Ancient of Days is interpreted by the angel as the victory of the saints of God against the antichristian powers of the world.

Jesus often referred to Himself as "the Son of Man" and in fact told the priests that they were in fact witnessing - at the time of His arrest and trial - the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds with power and glory:

Matthew 26:62-64 KJV
And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? [63] But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. [64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The word "hereafter" means literally "from now on", from this current point in time going forward into the future. They, the priests, would at that time begin to see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of Heaven.

Jesus, dying, and resurrecting, IS the victory of the saints over all enemies. His suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension, was His being presented before the Ancient of Days as the Messiah, and the Lamb of God, and the victorious Anointed One. His death, resurrection, and ascension is the Christological fulfillment of the vision in Daniel chapter 7. It is through His death and His triumph over death that the saints are able to enter the Kingdom and achieve victory. "This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith".

While the ultimate fulfillment of the saints victory is consummated in the final judgment and the destruction of death itself, we have the victory NOW because Christ is the archetypal Israel. It is only by being in Christ that we can lay any claim to being part of Israel.

So "seeing the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds" etc is referencing the nations being made aware that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the victorious one seen in Daniel 7, the fulfillment of prophecy, the Messiah. They would see THE SIGN "of the Son of Man in Heaven coming in the clouds", that is, they would see Daniel 7's fulfillment. He is not talking about people seeing a Jesus-figure in the literal skies.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jewish power was negated, the nations saw the sign that Jesus is the Christ, and His messengers went forth with the Gospel to gather the elect from the four directions. Basically, just like He said. Futurists confound this part of the Olivet prophecy with the return of Jesus and the resurrection of the saints. This is largely due to their unfamiliarity with Bible prophecy in general and prophetic language in particular.


Verses 36-51 are speaking of the return of Jesus. Notice, there is a difference between "the coming of the Son of Man", and the "return" of the Lord, in this prophecy and throughout the teachings of Jesus. The coming of the Lord in judgment upon Jerusalem was clearly taught by Him numerous times, and it was attended with signs that would warn of its impending occurrence. The RETURN of the Lord to resurrect the saints is always spoken of as being sudden and unexpected, with no prior attending warning signs.

(your last paragraph, vs.36-51)
But about that day or hour no one knows,

The nearest antecedent to “THAT”, goes to a distant future event, instead of the one he was just talking about?


Do you view the parallel gospel and Luke, Luke 2437, vultures is also talking about Jesus second coming, and not the judgment in ad 70?


Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

(your last paragraph, vs.36-51)
But about that day or hour no one knows,

The nearest antecedent to “THAT”, goes to a distant future event, instead of the one he was just talking about?


Do you view the parallel gospel and Luke, Luke 2437, vultures is also talking about Jesus second coming, and not the judgment in ad 70?


Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Matthew 24:37-51 KJV
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is part of the Olivet Prophecy. This is not contained in Luke's account of the Olivet Prophecy. However, we read this in Luke 17:

Luke 17:20-37 KJV
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. [22] And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. [23] And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. [24] For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. [25] But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. [26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. [27] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. [28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; [29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. [30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. [31] In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. [32] Remember Lot's wife. [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [37] And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

This was a different occasion, and a different message/teaching. They do contain some similar expressions, however, because the ideas expressed are similar. So it is no surprise that Jesus would repeat a phrase or use some of the same terminology on different occassions. Both of these passages appear to be talking about His return to reward his servants.

Notice that both describe an event that is unexpected as to its timing, that the only way to be prepared for it is to be on watch at all times. Not because one would then "see the signs of the approaching event", but rather that one would simply be always ready no matter when the event occurred.

Whereas in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, there are definite signs given which are indicators of its soon destruction, which people were supposed to be looking for. The metaphor or analogy of the changing season being indicated by natural signs is used to describe the pre-AD 70 signs of Jerusalem's doom.

Clearly, these are two separate events being described. One has signs prefiguring its approach, the other is unexpected and its timing is wholly unknown. The first can be prepared for by looking for the attendant signs. The other can only be prepared for by being prepared at all times. In regard to the return of the Lord, the disciples were not to be deceived by anyone claiming that He had returned unnoticed by them. There would be NO NEED to "notify" anyone that the Lord had returned. He would not be returning invisibly and unnoticed by most or all. Yet there is clearly a need to "notify" people that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was in fact a coming of the Lord in judgment. The fact the Roman army attacked Jerusalem in itself would signify nothing to anyone about the Lord or any coming of the Lord, unless they are taught what "the coming of the Lord" means Scripturally. Just because Rome destroyed an uppity tributary city would signify nothing to anyone about Jesus unless they are taught that He prophesied that city's destruction as the vengeance of God, and understood that Scripturally, when the Lord executed venegance upon a city or nation, it was often referred to as "the coming of the Lord". Whereas the return of the Lord would require nobody to notify anyone of anything, all would see it, recognise it, and the effects would be immediate. So, once again, these must be two different events.

[Esaias]

Matthew 22:1-14 KJV
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, [2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, [3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. [4] Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. [5] But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: [6] And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. [7] But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. [8] Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. [9] Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. [10] So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. [11] And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: [12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. [13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

The invitation is given, it is rejected, the Lord then destroys the city of the rejectors. AFTER THAT, the invitation is extended to others, and the wedding is furnished with guests, UNTIL the arrival of the king to inspect them, at which time there is a separation and judgment upon those not properly prepared.

There is the coming of the Lord in judgment upon Jerusalem, and then there is the arrival and appearance of the Lord to cleanse His Kingdom and give reward to His servants.

[Amanah]

Thank you Elder.
Your explanation makes sense because:
1. the parable of the fig tree, and
2. the statement of this generation not passing away Were definitely out of place

And I was uncomfortable about it, but just couldn't figure it out.