Random Questions Thread

[Amanah]

Incorporating Esaias' explanation

Timeline for Matthew 24 using a preterist/historicist understanding and avoiding futuristic misconceptions.

Section 1: Destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)

- Verses 1-3: Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple
- Verses 4-14: Signs leading up to the destruction:
- False prophets and messiahs (4-5)
- Wars and rumors of wars (6-7)
- Famines, earthquakes, and pestilences (7-8)
- Persecution of Christians (9-10)
- Gospel preached to all nations (14)
- Verses 15-22: The abomination of desolation (Roman destruction of Jerusalem)
- Verses 23-28: Warning against false prophets and messiahs
- Verses 29-31: Cosmic disturbances and the sign of the Son of Man (Jesus' victory and exaltation)
- Verse 32: The parable of the fig tree (Israel's destruction)

Section 2: Second Coming

- Verses 36-44: Unknown day and hour of Jesus' return
- Verses 45-51: Faithfulness and watchfulness required

Note:
- The events in Section 1 occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.
- Section 2 refers to the Second Coming of Jesus, which has not yet occurred.

This timeline highlights the two distinct sections of Matthew 24, separating the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem from the Second Coming of Jesus.

[shag]

Thank you, Esaias, for taking the time to “learn me”
It’s very much appreciated.

Regarding the Wheat and Tares (interesting to me that only Matthew brought up the resurrection at the crucifixion, and the Wheat and tares parable) but anyway, the Wheat and Tares….


Do you put that as Jesus speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, (as in Matt 24, two grinding at the mill etc) or in our future?




Matt. 13:24..Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.25..But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.26..When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27..“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28..“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29..“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30..Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36..Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37..He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.38..The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39..and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40..“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41..The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.42..They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43..Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.




That last verse (then will the righteous shine) reminds me of the first part of Daniel 12:3.
(While the last part of Daniel 3 reminds me of 1 Thess. 2:16, Matt.23:15, Maybe a connection, maybe not)

[shag]

Another question:


Rev. 22:14-15 has sinners still existing outside the gates of city.


Wouldn’t that just be pointing out that right now, to get Into the body of Christ, which is the new Jerusalem come down from heaven, (Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22-24, Rev. 21:9) and outside the body of Christ are sinners? (1 Cor. 6:9-10)


Because in the future, wickedness and sinners are destroyed, so they could not exist/be alive outside of a certain place or people.
?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shag

Another question:


Rev. 22:14-15 has sinners still existing outside the gates of city.


Wouldn’t that just be pointing out that right now, to get Into the body of Christ, which is the new Jerusalem come down from heaven, (Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22-24, Rev. 21:9) and outside the body of Christ are sinners? (1 Cor. 6:9-10)


Because in the future, wickedness and sinners are destroyed, so they could not exist/be alive outside of a certain place or people.
?

Yes, all sorts of wickedness exist outside the New Jerusalem and the gates never close.

Book of Revelation is exactly what its name implies. The word άηοκάλψιϛ means to uncover a mystery. Therefore the “symbols” are to uncover the truth of the group who is using the άηοκάλψιϛ to relay their mystery.

Revelation 21:23 God makes a lamb glow in the dark? Maybe it has another deeper meaning?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Another question:


Rev. 22:14-15 has sinners still existing outside the gates of city.


Wouldn’t that just be pointing out that right now, to get Into the body of Christ, which is the new Jerusalem come down from heaven, (Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22-24, Rev. 21:9) and outside the body of Christ are sinners? (1 Cor. 6:9-10)


Because in the future, wickedness and sinners are destroyed, so they could not exist/be alive outside of a certain place or people.
?

Revelation 22:13-15 KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Jesus says that those who obey His commandments are those who have access to the tree of life (immortality) and who may enter in through the gates into the city, contrasted with those who are outside (those who are not allowed entrance to the city) who are described as dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc. The city was previously identified as the Bride, and therefore is not a location but a people (the church).

I do not see anything in this verse as indicating a particular time frame. If this is describing the after-judgment scene, then nobody may enter the city until after the judgment. So obviously this is not saying anything about the status of the human race "after" any particular time frame or event, but rather is describing the moral condition of those who are either obedient to God or not, those who have access to immortality or who do not, who have access to the city of God or who do not.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you, Esaias, for taking the time to “learn me”
It’s very much appreciated.

Regarding the Wheat and Tares (interesting to me that only Matthew brought up the resurrection at the crucifixion, and the Wheat and tares parable) but anyway, the Wheat and Tares….


Do you put that as Jesus speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, (as in Matt 24, two grinding at the mill etc) or in our future?




Matt. 13:24..Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.25..But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.26..When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27..“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28..“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29..“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30..Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36..Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37..He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.38..The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39..and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40..“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41..The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.42..They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43..Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.




That last verse (then will the righteous shine) reminds me of the first part of Daniel 12:3.
(While the last part of Daniel 3 reminds me of 1 Thess. 2:16, Matt.23:15, Maybe a connection, maybe not)

The parable of the wheat and tares gives a general overview of the progress of the Kingdom, showing its mixed character (containing both good and bad), which is a prominent feature of many of His other Kingdom parables. He is saying that for now the Kingdom contains both good and bad, but there will come a time of separation (just as in farming the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest), at which time the tares will be burned and the wheat gathered into the barn. Since the point of the parable is to illustrate the mixed nature of the Kingdom and its eventual resolution, rather than to give a definitive timeline of prophesied events, I would not try to press the details of the parable too much to try and create a time line of "fulfillment".

[Amanah]

Some have offered the following explanation for people in Rev 22:
That some in Rev 22 were resurrected to immortality and others are believers who aren't immortal but are kept alive via the tree leaves. I find this explanation unsettling. Along with, as Shag mentioned, sinners there.

But, at the end of the book Rev 22:20, Jesus is saying that he will come quickly, so, Revelation is not chronological.

Possibly part of Revelation 22 is harkening back to an earlier point in the timeline of eschatology?

[Amanah]

If you heard a teaching that any of the following could be evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost, what would you think, how would you respond

Speaking in Tongues

1. Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
3. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Prophecy

1. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Spiritual Gifts

1. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So, for example, if God used someone to perform a notable miracle, but they had never spoken in tongues.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If you heard a teaching that any of the following could be evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost, what would you think, how would you respond

Speaking in Tongues

1. Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
3. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Prophecy

1. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Spiritual Gifts

1. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So, for example, if God used someone to perform a notable miracle, but they had never spoken in tongues.

Acts 19 they spoke with tongues, so it can't be used to say tongues is not the initial evidence.

Acts 10 they spoke in tongues and magnified God. Seems essentially the same thing in Acts 19, as their Spirit inspired praising of God could certainly be called prophesying.

1 Corinthian 12-14 is in the context of people who already have the Spirit and are being used in different ways in the meeting. Paul isn't talking about initial evidence here.

So what is left? It is true God can even make a donkey prophesy in a human language, but I cannot but see the normative rule is tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Spirit, just going by what Scripture says.

Joel said people would do various things as a result of the Spirit being poured out, but one thing he said they ALL would do is "prophesy", which according to Peter meant speaking with other tongues. So I have to stick with that.

[shag]

Dispensationalists seem to teach that because the Jews rejected Christ, THEREFORE, he came to the gentiles by way of a “second or “remaining” option”. IOW, BECAUSE they rejected him, is the only reason we could receive him. Is this accurate?

But the truth is, he came knowing that some of the Jews would reject the gospel(while some would not reject it) and he had planned all along to also come to the gentiles. (Correct?)

(The tree grafting was on purpose, not a backup plan, might be another way to say it)