Random Questions Thread

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shag

Dispensationalists seem to teach that because the Jews rejected Christ, THEREFORE, he came to the gentiles by way of a “second or “remaining” option”. IOW, BECAUSE they rejected him, is the only reason we could receive him. Is this accurate?

But the truth is, he came knowing that some of the Jews would reject the gospel(while some would not reject it) and he had planned all along to also come to the gentiles. (Correct?)

(The tree grafting was on purpose, not a backup plan, might be another way to say it)

Classic Dispensationalism (although rare these days) doesn't see a remnant of Jews. Therefore focus is taking off Biblically historic understanding of Judea, the regathering back to Israel/Jerusalem. While they acknowledge Jesus coming to His own, and His own receiving Him not. They focus on a physical return (not the rapture) for Jesus to be accepted by every single modern Jew on the planet. The Dispensationalist calls "the time of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24. They obviously interpret "sword" as AK 47, but I digress. The time of the Gentiles to Dispensationalists run from Babylonian captivity 586 B.C. to some undisclosed point in time when Christ physically returns. Again. This is Classical Dispensationalism. Yet, all forms of Dispensationalism has to keep adjusting its instruments in order to land their space ship. Because if you look back at all forms of futurism, as time marches on, the teaching must be adjusted for the delay. hence we have been told that the time of the Gentiles have been stopped numerous times in modern history. Brandon Biggs (new age soothsayer) has claimed the time of the Gentiles will be ending, shortly. This takes away the return of Christ as the catalyst for modern Jewish conversions all over the planet. The Holy Ghost is supposed to leave the Gentiles and go to the modern Jews. This is mostly taught prior to any rapture, or physical return of Christ. But, as I said, futurism tends to get morphed as time marches on. I do believe we still will have some changes in the near future for Dispensationalism.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The time of the Gentiles to Dispensationalists run from Babylonian captivity 586 B.C. to some undisclosed point in time when Christ physically returns.

The Watchtower used to teach this as the reason the millennium would begin in 1933 (2520 years after 586 BC = 1933). The various dates associated with the destruction of the Temple, the rebuilding of the Temple, the return from Babylon, etc is also where they were getting 1914, 1925, 1933, and some of their other dates, all associated with the 2520 year cycles they were using.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If you heard a teaching that any of the following could be evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost, what would you think, how would you respond

Speaking in Tongues

1. Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
3. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Prophecy

1. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Spiritual Gifts

1. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So, for example, if God used someone to perform a notable miracle, but they had never spoken in tongues.

Sister Amanah,

I think this is an excellent subject to study and possibly debate. I sometimes wonder if this doctrine has been properly vetted. Regardless of whether you believe the initial evidence doctrine to be true or not, it is helpful to vet the doctrine from a scriptural standpoint.

I think it is commonly accepted that tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost (at least in oneness Pentecostal churches). However I can’t think of any scripture that says directly that it actually IS the initial evidence. There is anecdotal evidence, or perhaps even empirical evidence.

In my opinion, to properly vet the doctrine, we should provide direct, literal, scriptural evidence that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

If that is not possible, (I don’t believe it is) we should systematically move on to other evidence that is not as direct. The absence of literal evidence doesn’t prove that the doctrine would be false, in my opinion, it would be the strongest evidence, but possibly not the ONLY evidence.

So to get started. Can anyone quote scripture that directly and literally says that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?

[Amanah]

- God's original covenant was with the entire nation of Israel (comprising the houses of Judah and Israel), but due to their disobedience and idolatry, God "divorced" the house of Israel (Jeremiah 3:8) and exiled them among the nations.
- The house of Judah (Jews) remained in the land, but also faced exile and dispersion.
- Through the prophets, God promised a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27) that would reunite and restore both houses.
- In the New Testament, Jesus' teachings and the apostles' writings reveal that Gentiles are grafted into this new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:11-24, Galatians 3:8, Ephesians 2:11-22).
- This new covenant extends to all nations, fulfilling God's original plan to bless all nations through Abraham's descendants (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 22:18).
- The "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) includes the dispersed houses of Judah and Israel who lost their identity and are now gentiles.

In summary, God's plan was always to save and bless all nations, but due to Israel's disobedience, a new covenant was necessary to restore and expand God's people. Through Jesus, Gentiles are now grafted into this new covenant, becoming the Israel of God.

Israel has never been excluded from the Covenant.
And God's intention has always been to include all.

[Amanah]

Bro TM, let me start a new thread for this topic. Give me a minute.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro TM, let me start a new thread for this topic. Give me a minute.

Thank you. I think that’s a great idea.

[Amanah]

You are fine

They are not inheriting anything until they repent and get grafted back in.

Israel was broken off from the olive tree, representing God's people, due to rejecting Jesus, their Messiah (Acts 3). Now, all peoples, including Israel, must repent and be grafted into the olive tree through the New Covenant, becoming part of the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16). This spiritual transformation allows them to inherit the promises of God, including the New Earth (Revelation 21). Through repentance and obeying the gospel, individuals from all nations can be grafted into the olive tree, becoming part of God's redeemed people and inheriting eternal life in the New Earth.

[shag]

Gal. 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I think there are some(at least in my small circle) that would say that this promise of Abraham does not include the land promise.

Thoughts?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by shag

Gal. 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I think there are some(at least in my small circle) that would say that this promise of Abraham does not include the land promise.

Thoughts?

I would say that they are correct. The land promise is part of the old covenant which is no longer in effect. Even for Jews. That’s my understanding anyway.

I think if you read the whole chapter you will realize that it has nothing to do with the land. It has to do with the promise versus the law.

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The promise (in this case) is that all nations will be blessed. The promise was before the law. It wasn’t subject to the law. It was according to faith. (Something I have been trying to explain to Amanah and Esaias to no avail.)

Read verse 8. We (as Gentiles) are the heathen. We Gentiles are justified by faith. That is the promise of Abraham. Preached before the gospel. In thee shall all the nations be blessed.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I would say that they are correct. The land promise is part of the old covenant which is no longer in effect. Even for Jews. That’s my understanding anyway.

You are correct.