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  #41  
Old 04-07-2010, 11:22 PM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

Justin, do you know where Reckart got his "doctorate" degree?
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  #42  
Old 04-08-2010, 12:05 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Hasn't that been discussed here before?

First time I remember an Apostolic Pentecostal casting doubts on the Bible it was the late Gordon Magee and he questioned Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7.

I would expect stuff like that from modernists and unbelievers but it bothers me when it comes from folks of faith.
I am very leery about questioning the authenticity of any Scripture, but 1 John 5:7 is on very shaky ground in that it cannot be found in any manuscript from before the sixteenth century. Matthew 28:19 has some problems, but the evidence for its authenticity is much more sound.
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Last edited by Ev. Duane Williams; 04-08-2010 at 12:13 AM.
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  #43  
Old 04-08-2010, 02:59 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I was gonna point that out...Im sure if I had someone would have accused me of claiming to be an authority though

Im glad you posted it
Yeah, I've never been accused of that.
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  #44  
Old 04-08-2010, 03:07 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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Justin, do you know where Reckart got his "doctorate" degree?
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  #45  
Old 04-08-2010, 08:51 AM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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Originally Posted by TheLayman View Post
There is not one single shred of evidence indicating the Matthew 28:19 us spurious:

http://www.goodnewscafe.net/showthre...79961#poststop

TheLayman
internal evidence is lacking as nowhere is such a phrase even repeated. Especially a phrase that has such a theological chantish nature to it sins it would be such a unique phrasing. People would clearly use it but yet it was not.
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  #46  
Old 04-08-2010, 09:01 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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I want one too... "Good evening Dr. Justin!"
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  #47  
Old 04-08-2010, 09:03 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
internal evidence is lacking as nowhere is such a phrase even repeated. Especially a phrase that has such a theological chantish nature to it sins it would be such a unique phrasing. People would clearly use it but yet it was not.
Most Catholic, Protestant and secular encyclopedias question the validity of the Trinitarian method of baptism and the original manuscripts.

Also, what more internal evidence do you need other than the fact that no one was ever baptised in the NT using the Trinitarian formula. That speaks volumes in itself!
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  #48  
Old 04-08-2010, 09:04 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

Matthew 28:19 was most certainly altered post-Nicea. Eusebius quoted it quite differently and he was at the counsel of Nicea.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/evr-last-gosp.htm

he following seven citations of Matthew 28:19 are shown below in the quotations from the Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio) by Eusebius. The intent of this excerpt is not to purport accuracy of theology or philosophy of this man, but to glean from his access to the text of Matthew 28:19 in his day and time. For these citations, Eusebius (265 A.D. -- 339 A.D.) as proclaimed Bishop of Caesarea had access to the famed Library of Caesarea and thus references Matthew 28:19 from more ancient manuscripts housed therein than are available to us today.

(1) Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

Whereas He, who conceived nothing human or mortal, see how truly He speaks with the voice of God, saying in these very words to those disciples of His, the poorest of the poor: "Go forth, and make disciples of all the nations." "But how," the disciples might reasonably have answered the Master, "can we do it: How, pray, can we preach to Romans: How can we argue with the Egyptians? We are men bred up to use the Syrian tongue only, what language shall we speak to Greeks: How shall we persuade Persians, Armenians, Chaldaeans, Scythians, Indians, and other barbarous nations to give up their ancestral gods, and worship the Creator of all? What sufficiency of speech have we to trust to in attempting such work as this? And what hope of success can we have if we dare to proclaim laws directly opposed to the laws about their own gods that have been established for ages among all nations? By what power shall we ever survive our daring attempt?"

But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph "In MY NAME." And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: "God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth," He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my Name." He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: "for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations."

(2) Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152

With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you," …

(3) Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159

But when I turn my eyes away to the evidence of the power of the Word, what multitudes it has won, and what enormous churches have been founded by those unlettered and mean disciples of Jesus, not in obscure and unknown places, but in the most noble cities—I mean in Royal Rome, in Alexandria, and Antioch, through the whole of Egypt and Libya, Europe and Asia, and in villages and country places and among the nations--I am irresistibly forced to retrace my steps, and search for their cause, and to confess that they could only have succeeded in their daring venture, by a power more divine, and more strong than man’s and by the co-operation of Him Who said to them; "Make disciples of all the nations in my Name."

(4) Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175

And He bids His own disciples after their rejection, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."

(5) Book I, Chapter 3, 6 (a), p. 20

Hence of course, our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Son of God, said to His disciples after His Resurrection: "Go and make disciples of all the nations," and added "Teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you." (1)

Note 1 in W. J. Ferrar’s edition: Matthew 28:19. The verse is quoted thus seven times in the Demonstratio with the omission of the reference to Baptism and the Trinity. Conybeare (Hibbert Journal, i. (1902-3) p. 102), who holds that the reference was interpolated for dogmatic reasons, and was not fully assured in the text till after the Council of Nicea, supports his view from the practice of Eusebius. This is the view of Kirsopp Lake, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ii. 380 and Moffatt, The Historical New Test. 1901, p. 647. The historicity of the words as ipsissima verba is denied by Harnack, Clemen, and J. A. Robinson, Encyclopedia Biblica, art. "Baptism" From the Acts taken literally it would be gathered that apostolic Baptism was simply in the Name of Jesus. – (Acts 8:12-16; Acts 9:18; Acts 22:16)

(6) Book I, Chapter 5, 9 (a), p. 24

"Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you." What could He mean but the teaching and discipline of the new covenant?

(7) Book I, Chapter 6, 24 (c), p. 42

"Go ye into all the world, and make disciples of all the nations … teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you."

Bibliography: Eusebius (265-339) Bishop of Caesarea around 314 was referred to as the son of Pamphilus. He wrote many books, the best known of which is the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius. Other writings were the Praeparatio, the Demonstratio from which we have The Proof of the Gospel, Quaestiones ad Stephanum, and the Epitome. According to the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, "His time considered him its most learned man."

The above seven referenced quotations of Matthew 28:19 according to Eusebius reflects the verse as he read it from the text in the library in Caesarea. The problem with most translations including the King James Version, as it relates to the text of Matthew 28:19, is that they reflect an erroneous addition of wording of Catholic origin and not the correct words spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As the verse and the doctrine of the Trinity were being discussed in his day, and having access to the original, Eusebius denounced the reading of Matthew 28:19 with the Trinitarian phrase as the most serious of all the falsifications.

It is time for modern-day Christianity to get back to the actual words of our Lord Jesus and quote the words as they were actually written in the "Everlasting Gospel" of Matthew as:

"Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all the nations in my name" (Matthew 28:19).

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall first be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). Could the correct rendition of Matthew’s Gospel play a part in the distribution of the Everlasting Gospel? (Revelation 14:6 -- "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people").
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  #49  
Old 04-08-2010, 09:04 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

Theres your smoking gun.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:06 AM
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Re: Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Justin, do you know where Reckart got his "doctorate" degree?
I drove by his church the other week while visiting a pastor uncle in Tampa. Its a real dive in the ghetto part of town.
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