Apostolic Minister/State Rep. voted for AZ bill

[n david]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Uh...yeah...obviously allowing an illegal immigrant to attend your church is NOT the same as murdering someone. For Pete's sake. Is no one sane anymore?

n_david--did you forget that Paul had to be smuggled in and out of cities in order to preach the Gospel and then save his own life? He was definitely breaking the law. I know of missionaries who had to be smuggled into countries to preach, OR enter under the pretense of being a tourist or teacher.

To clarify, DAII mentioned there being Pastors who themselves are illegal immigrants. This wasn't about Pastors who have saints who are illegal immigrants.

I stand by my statement. Yes, I'm perfectly sane. A pastor who breaks the law is LEGALLY the same as a murderer. They've both broken a law. I'm not discussing morality, only the legality.

I don't believe Paul was smuggled because he was breaking the law. I don't see that mentioned anywhere. He hid to save his life, yes, but this is apples and oranges.

Also comparing this to smuggling Bibles into China is, again, apples and oranges. Religion is not against the law here or in Mexico, being an illegal immigrant is however ... in both countries.

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

OPEN LETTER TO REV. REPRESENTATIVE STEVE B. MONTENEGRO
..
April 23, 2010
..
Rev. Steve B. Montenegro, Member
Arizona State Assembly
..
Dear Steve,
..
I write with great disappointment over your betrayal of people who counted on you to stand up for them and over your greater concern for a bright political future in Arizona. As you well know, the community of apostolic believers who made it possible for your parents and family to enjoy a full life in the United States has always included a significant number of brothers and sisters who, like your family, have also journeyed in search of a full life, often away from very desperate situations, obeying a “higher law” of survival. Unlike you, they did not have the privilege of official documents from a denomination (Apostolic Assembly) to ease that transition. All they had was a name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and, often, a letter certifying to good Christian character from an apostolic pastor in Mexico or Central America. Yet, as faithful payers of tithes and offerings and untold hours and years of religious labor, they made possible the sustenance of your ministerial family after its arrival from El Salvador. Like Naomi of old (the Book of Ruth), they have been uprooted in the back-and-forth ebb and flow of labor migration waves. Like Ruth of old (Naomi’s widowed daughter-in-law), they have learned to follow Jehovah’s dictum to always welcome the stranger, the poor, the orphaned and the widow, a teaching reinforced by Jesus’ concern for the “least of these” in Matthew 25. In that solidarity Ruth and Naomi found fullness and messianic promise in and for both countries, Moab and Israel. Now, like the beleaguered and criminalized community in the Book of Esther, your brothers and sisters must seek refuge from the blistering heat of xenophobic and scaremongering laws, appealing to high heaven for help in a time of trouble. What pains me the most is that unlike the heroine Esther who risked life and prestige for the persecuted, you have elected to follow the works of Arizona’s own Haman, Senator Russell Pearce, who has long sought to mark and expel these “lawbreakers” (notice the similarity to Haman’s charges) and who has ascended into powerful positions on the back of these scapegoats. My dear Steve, many of these scapegoats are your brothers and sisters, who have prayed for and physically sustained you and yours all these years. Your betrayal and hypocrisy (surely you transported and fellowshipped with these “lawbreakers” in the past; surely you never refused a tithe or love offering from the hands of “lawbreaking” laborers) as a co-signer of this nefarious legislation (SB 1070) is a source of great sadness. So, too, was your 2008 campaign’s attempt to distance yourself from other, “lawbreaking” immigrants. While I wish you well in your promising political career, I pray that you find your place once more among the powerless and humble of the earth. Who knows, but that for such a time as this you have been called into the public square, to proclaim justice and mercy? You may protest that you sought to soften the heavy hand of Haman (Pearce), but you did not succeed. Neither will Governor Brewer's executive order against racial profiling. The hounds of fear and hatred have been unleashed. And do not think that you will escape the fate of your vulnerable brethren. Dear Steve, it would have been sweet to celebrate Purim (the Jewish holiday celebrating the Esther story of liberation) with you a month ago. It is too late now. The feast of Pentecost is around the corner, however. Maybe then you can restore yourself to the right hand of fellowship with your brothers and sisters who love and pray for you, albeit in the shadowy margins of an increasingly hostile society.
..
With a broken heart,
..
Tío Mordecai ..
(Daniel Ramírez, Ph.D., Ann Arbor, Michigan)

Wow. To say this letter completely takes the books of Ruth and Esther out of context and warps its message is both kind and an understatement. The author needs to read the book again. Comparing illegal immigrants to the children of Israel, seriously?

Sounds all pretty and would make a good Oprah show ... but unfortunately it's a twisted, warped, non-contextual and just plain wrong view of both Ruth and Esther.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Most of the "xenophobic and scaremongering" language has come from the Left who seek to create an atmosphere of oppression and fear with their overblown rhetoric and hyperbole.

Besides, you already lost this argument when you compared your polemic opponents to "nazis." Godwin's Law.

Actually, by pushing newspaper headlines of illegal drug smugglers shooting and raping people, there is a growing perception of all illegals as violent criminals. Xenophobia is spreading. Scaremongering... comes with the turf.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Actually, by pushing newspaper headlines of illegal drug smugglers shooting and raping people, there is a growing perception of all illegals as violent criminals. Xenophobia is spreading. Scaremongering... comes with the turf.

It is selective news reporting which fits my call of propaganda ... which Pela responded to by flopping like Charles Barkle by feigning insult and boohooing about name calling while calling for my repentance ...

simply because I mentioned that like all politicos, including Goebells (Nazi) and the White House ... and your local school district ...

It all can be manipulated to make a point. Goebells noted as an extreme and dangerous example.

Of course, CNN and Fox don't engage in any of this ... depending on who you speak to. The likes of Sean Hannity make a career of it ....

Bravo! Pela doing his best con impression after their partially contrived Jen Franklin controversy.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Actually, by pushing newspaper headlines of illegal drug smugglers shooting and raping people, there is a growing perception of all illegals as violent criminals. Xenophobia is spreading. Scaremongering... comes with the turf.

Illegal aliens account for about 7.2% of the population of Arizona. They represent about 18% of those doing time in state prisons. The "infamous" Sheriff Joe of Maricopa County (Arizona's most populous county with over half of all of AZ's population) has reported that his county jail system has about the same ratio of "illegal" to "legal" - or about 18%.

http://www.svherald.com/content/2010...-ninos-effects

So, illegal aliens account for between 2 and 3 times the amount of crime per capita than the rest of our society. Of course, simply being an illegal alien may represent circumstances where a desperate individual, far from home, may think they have no where else to turn except to crime.

In most cases however, I think it appears that the criminal element within the illegal alien community is here in America solely because they are criminals wherever they go. By far, the largest number of arrests involve illegals who are smuggling or involved in various levels of drug distribution, human trafficking and crimes of violence against other illegals.

There was a large "gang" of illegals camped out in the hills west of me that were growing pot in the state forest (about 700 miles from the border, if you take the Interstate). They were armed and had confronted hikers and been scaring people off to protect their crop. That's how law enforcement found out about them. They weren't here "looking for work." They were here to operate a criminal enterprise.

Securing our border and enforcing the Federal legislation against illegal immigration will dramatically cut into numbers of illegals who are disproportionately responsible for a large number of crimes against both American and Mexican citizens.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

OPEN LETTER TO REV. REPRESENTATIVE STEVE B. MONTENEGRO
..
April 23, 2010
..
Rev. Steve B. Montenegro, Member
Arizona State Assembly
..
Dear Steve,
..

..
With a broken heart,
..
Tío Mordecai ..
(Daniel Ramírez, Ph.D., Ann Arbor, Michigan)

Interesting read!

[pelathais]

Let's do this: For every Hispanic American citizen who is hassled in Arizona because of "racial profiling" we will score one tally for NAY! against SB:1070.

For every person who is in this country illegally who commits a felony in the state of Arizona we will tally one YEA! in favor of SB:1070.

Anybody on the "NAY" side want to take me up on this?

The day after this law was passed an Arizona deputy sheriff was shot and seriously injured by a group of 6 individuals who were in the country illegally. There were no reports of racial profiling that day.

So just from Day One we have a tally of:

NAY! - 0
YEA! - 6

Should we keep the tally going?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Let's do this: For every Hispanic American citizen who is hassled in Arizona because of "racial profiling" we will score one tally for NAY! against SB:1070.

For every person who is in this country illegally who commits a felony in the state of Arizona we will tally one YEA! in favor of SB:1070.

Anybody on the "NAY" side want to take me up on this?

The day after this law was passed an Arizona deputy sheriff was shot and seriously injured by a group of 6 individuals who were in the country illegally. There were no reports of racial profiling that day.

So just from Day One we have a tally of:

NAY! - 0
YEA! - 6

Should we keep the tally going?

I would take you up on this, except the very passage of this bill, I believe would appeal to the least nobel of human vices. Deputies, citizens and immigrants alike. I see this bill as more than a pot stirrer, but as an instigator. I actually expect crime to rise! Surprise, surprise! Maybe those headline-pushing, demonizing, Mexican-Immigrants are all rapists, will have more ammunition. All works right into their hands.

I don't see the real violent immigrants willfully being pulled over, or taken into custody. I don't see non-violent immigrants reporting crimes or seeking medical attention (in fear of deportation). This will smother and push underground a people into paralyzing fear. The result will most assuredly be violence from some. Victimization for others.

But maybe even then I'd consider keeping the talley. Except, how do we know all those who felt hassled by this bill? Who will keep score? Arizonians will be quick to print crime though. Not a fair shake here for tallies.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I would take you up on this, except the very passage of this bill, I believe would appeal to the least nobel of human vices. Deputies, citizens and immigrants alike. I see this bill as more than a pot stirrer, but as an instigator. I actually expect crime to rise! Surprise, surprise! Maybe those headline-pushing, demonizing, Mexican-Immigrants are all rapists, will have more ammunition. All works right into their hands.

I don't see the real violent immigrants willfully being pulled over, or taken into custody. I don't see non-violent immigrants reporting crimes or seeking medical attention (in fear of deportation). This will smother and push underground a people into paralyzing fear. The result will most assuredly be violence from some. Victimization for others.

But maybe even then I'd consider keeping the talley. Except, how do we know all those who felt hassled by this bill? Who will keep score? Arizonians will be quick to print crime though. Not a fair shake here for tallies.

Of course not ... it's faulty apriori thinking and Pela knows better

They would have been guilty of this and most likely apprehended sans this bill ... because they are hard-core criminals ....

and deported ... after knowledge of their legal status found out .... as has happened in most cases prior ... most importantly after being found guilty of murder...

This bill in no way changed or helped in this matter...

But by all means spend valuable time and bandwidth ... tallying.

I will be organizing.

[pelathais]

Meanwhile, as we debate whether or not to deport illegal aliens who have committed felonies (usually against their fellow illegal immigrants), North Korean women who illegally immigrate into China are sold for as much as $1500 each.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

No cries for reform will be heard coming from our media outlets or the Left. They will instead continue to hype and inflame their political opponents here at home.

Spain shoots illegal immigrants as they climb over the fence. Mexico has a year round "open season" on Guatemalan immigrants. Italy conducts mass forced "repatriations" by sea.

The U.S. is vilified by its own spoiled offspring when a suspected child rapist is held for being "undocumented" until ICE can complete a fingerprint database search.

[Apostolic 2:38]

"To clarify, DAII mentioned there being Pastors who themselves are illegal immigrants. This wasn't about Pastors who have saints who are illegal immigrants."

Are you calling illegal immigrants who are washed in the blood, saved in Jesus name, and telling others about the love of God, saints???
N david please stop, you are starting to sound christian....LOL..

You just mad that I said that if big business wants cheap labor that they should find help in the trailer parks....Tell your kinfolk Bubba I said hi...

It's white 'brothers' like you that I would NEVER think about joining a UPC church...However thank the good Lord there are still people like Bruce Howell..
(FM director)