No Jesus Name Invoked, No Valid Baptism?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Our brothers would have us believe that Cornelius would have split hell wide open had he died of a heart attack just as Peter was getting ready to dunk him. That is making the act of baptism itself an idolatrous thing. This view weakens the message of salvation.

Originally Posted by Originalist

I believe it is normatively a PRE-salvation experience connected to the forgiveness of sins. So while I feel it is error to link forgiveness of sins in baptism to a baptizer's invocation, I still affirm baptism is an essential step of faith towards receiving the new birth of the Spirit.

How, do you reconcile these two posts?

[Aquila]

The faith of the seeker upon justifies them by their faith, but the purpose of this is so that we can be deemed worthy to be baptized in His name for the remission of our sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Not so that we can stop in the middle of the new birth process and celebrate being Baptist.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How, do you reconcile these two posts?

Why should I?

Any exceptions would be so few , and under the most unique of circumstances, it wouldn't even be worth mentioning. I feel Cornelius was one of those unique cases.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I am the chief Shepard.

The above is a typo?

Originally Posted by Originalist

He'll put me where he wants me in his time.

What does that actually look like? I mean pretty much you have been making these decisions based on offenses happening? Or Did you get a new revelation of the word? If the latter why didn't you get access of brethren of like precious faith? Or just exactly how many times have you been placed on the backside of the wilderness?

Originally Posted by Originalist

Then what does that say for the modern AG? What does it say for modern UPC churches where nobody progresses in biblical knowledge past Acts 2:38, and still don't get that right?

Seriously, you aren't anyone to talk sitting in a Baptist church. talk about not getting it right, are they freewill Baptist? Are they CALVINISTS? Once saved always saved? Bro, John 3:16 fried, sauteed, boiled, baked, and tossed in a tortilla. Did you read rdp's articles on Baptism? Esaias is stuck on Acts 2:38 only? These brothers post awesome information on numerous topics. To say they are stuck on one verse is being disingenuous.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Untrue. I've been stern with those who misrepresent my message.

Hey, every man's perception is there own reality. You have no one in your fellowship who tells you no, stop, or go. Of course you see yourself as robed in saffron, walking gently on lotus petals. Telling Esaias he has a redwood tree as a beam in his eye? Bro, you are bringing forth the unorthodox belief, we never left, we still believe what we believe. You now want to stand akimbo throwing down lighting bolts to the midgets below? If we oppose you you get stern? Stop, you get mad, just tell it like it is. You get mad.

Originally Posted by Originalist

I prefer not to be addressed in a condescending nature like "Hoss".

Oh, that is a Seanism. You can do unto others its godly, but when they do it to you it is condescending? Get over yourself.

Originally Posted by Originalist

You're too late. Satan already told me that. Now if you want to pile on with he Devil against me, go ahead. I'm am not twisting. I am planted on the Rock. I heard his sayings and did them. Thus, my house will not fall.

Bro, not everything is the devil, somethings are us. That is why we fellowship with brothers of like precious faith. Because they can either pull a coattail, or give a gentle push, or a swift kick in the backside. How long you been in Churchanity? Bro, we justify all sorts of things which happen to us, to make things not our fault. Like the time the man was traveling through the woods, and heard crying, mournful low weeping. He went to look for the person who was in such sorrow filled distress, and saw it was the devil. The man shocked, asked the devil, "what are you doing? Why are you weeping? You are the devil?" The devil replied "I'm crying because everyone blames everything on me, it just isn't all my fault." Bro, it is ok to admit we are going down the wrong road, and that road was paved totally by our bad life choices. All we have to do is pick ourselves back up and get on the right track. There has to be an Apostolic One GOD Jesus name church you could go to.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Sadly, I'll be sitting in a pew doing very little until I can finish school and adequately provide for my family. But at least the Baptists haven't told me that my financial storm must of been a result of inadequate giving, like my UPC pastor and District Superintendent told me. Please spare me the tired old lies, brother. Our movement does have insight other Christians need to consider. But our goofiness hinders them from seeing it. We have been our own worse stumbling block since before we broke with the AG.

The tired old lies is that all UPCI preachers see financial struggles as a lack of giving. Some brothers understand real world real time situations. If you are having issues they help you figure out how to get finances back up. All the brothers I have known and still know, point to disaster as being caused by a lack of giving Or that Jesus is chasing us down to kill us at every turn.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Yes, I see what's happening. I'm broke with a family. I live with my dad in a leaky, un-heated, un- air conditioned home built in 1936, in a very rural community. Driving 25 miles to the nearest oneness church is out of the question because of gas usage. Besides, that was the church I used to attend. Not once in 3 years did the pastor ask anyone in the church to put in a word for me at their work place. But when I had no choice but to get a second job, I was kicked to the curb. Now in all fairness, this is NOTHING like the UPC church I attended for 17 years about 90 minutes from here. The pastor of that church and I think alike on many of issues. I knew when I left his bubble and got into the "UPC world" I would most likely encounter unbalanced extremists (present company excepted), and I did. But no big deal. I walked with God long before I ever dreamed of joining the UPC (something you simply cannot grasp). He hasn't changed. I see this difficult aspect of my journey as a Moses like dessert experience that makes me a clean slate for God to write on. But you will be hearing about me, I believe.

Can't the 90 minute away brother help you out? By the way what is your secular expertice? Carpenter, mechanic, any trade experience?

Originally Posted by Originalist

Never made such a claim. I am just remaining faithful to church attendance confined by current limitations. You assume way too much. You are very judgmental. And if you really had Holy Ghost discernment, you would not be saying most of this junk. I don't let it offed me because I know your motives are good and that you are concerned.

Bro, does the old UPCI pastor know your situation?

Originally Posted by Originalist

I wouldn't trade those days for anything. As horrible as it was, I witnessed a major event in church history. I will write on it someday.

Well, you sure taught me about the two different women that he was supposedly were with. That video you posted makes you think.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Not intentionally. Again, you mean well and I appreciate your concern. But remember, there is also an AG alter-ego of you speaking all of this to me from the other side. "How could you join that cult?" blah blah blah. "Don't you know they deny the Father and the Holy Spirit?" blah blah blah. Everyone's an expert. Actually, I am an expert of sorts because I know both camps inside and out. Thus, I will be writing a book. Then both sides will hate me.

Bro, this isn't about any side but the Bible side, and I see clearly water baptism in Jesus name with the name Jesus invoked by baptizer as well as baptized repenting as a must.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Why should I?

Any exceptions would be so few , and under the most unique of circumstances, it wouldn't even be worth mentioning. I feel Cornelius was one of those unique cases.

Explain?

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Perhaps you could show from the Scripture that "what a baptizer says is irrelevant"?

If the guy who baptized you said "...in the name of Charles Russell" would your baptism be "valid"?

I never said what the baptizer says is irrelevant. Read my original post again to see what my point is.

Have you ever heard of anyone being baptized in someone's name besides, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or Jesus? I haven't, maybe a cult or something, but that's not my case. If it was I surely wouldn't be on this forum!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The above is a typo?




What does that actually look like? I mean pretty much you have been making these decisions based on offenses happening?

What "decisions"? I made no decisions. They were made for me.

Or Did you get a new revelation of the word?

My views have stayed the same.

If the latter why didn't you get access of brethren of like precious faith?

Nobody cared.

Or just exactly how many times have you been placed on the backside of the wilderness?

This is the first.



Seriously, you aren't anyone to talk sitting in a Baptist church. talk about not getting it right, are they freewill Baptist? Are they CALVINISTS? Once saved always saved? Bro, John 3:16 fried, sauteed, boiled, baked, and tossed in a tortilla. Did you read rdp's articles on Baptism?


Actually, Calvinism has not been mentioned. The pastor is preaching a series on being an "Acts 1:8 Church". Hey, we are just passing through. Sweet people. But once I find a job that can afford me to pay rent, I'll be leaving the sticks. I'm taking advantage of the time as a research opportunity.


Esaias is stuck on Acts 2:38 only? These brothers post awesome information on numerous topics. To say they are stuck on one verse is being disingenuous.

I was referring to people off of this board.





Hey, every man's perception is there own reality. You have no one in your fellowship who tells you no, stop, or go. Of course you see yourself as robed in saffron, walking gently on lotus petals. Telling Esaias he has a redwood tree as a beam in his eye?


Yes, I stand by that statement.

Bro, you are bringing forth the unorthodox belief, we never left, we still believe what we believe.

Apostolics are a diverse lot.


You now want to stand akimbo throwing down lighting bolts to the midgets below? If we oppose you you get stern? Stop, you get mad, just tell it like it is. You get mad.


Again, no discernment. Never been mad.



Oh, that is a Seanism. You can do unto others its godly, but when they do it to you it is condescending? Get over yourself.

And you don't see the irony.




Bro, not everything is the devil, somethings are us. That is why we fellowship with brothers of like precious faith.

Again, they choke out the faith with traditions of men, like "you didn't give enough". How do I "fellowship" with someone who thinks God is sending a curse on my finances?


Because they can either pull a coattail, or give a gentle push, or a swift kick in the backside. How long you been in Churchanity?


You delude yourself. Esaias does not believe in the system you cling to.


Bro, we justify all sorts of things which happen to us, to make things not our fault.

I've accepted responsibility for decisions I made a few years ago that impacted me, like not going back to school sooner, or putting money into home improvements instead of saving, only to have to sell my home at a much lower price than I had anticipated. So spare me this judgmental diatribe, brother. I've never blamed anyone but me. What I have criticized is the lack of compassion and false doctrine I encountered like "you didn't give enough" or "if you start missing Sunday night because you get a second job, you're backslid". You are obviously one of those who refuse to admit to the gross error in the church. Your whole identity is wrapped up in churchianity. So spare me.


Like the time the man was traveling through the woods, and heard crying, mournful low weeping. He went to look for the person who was in such sorrow filled distress, and saw it was the devil. The man shocked, asked the devil, "what are you doing? Why are you weeping? You are the devil?" The devil replied "I'm crying because everyone blames everything on me, it just isn't all my fault."

I've not done this.


Bro, it is ok to admit we are going down the wrong road,

And part of that road was trying to stay a part of a corrupt system. Brother, the UPC is the spiritual abuse capitol of Pentecost.


and that road was paved totally by our bad life choices. All we have to do is pick ourselves back up and get on the right track. There has to be an Apostolic One GOD Jesus name church you could go to.


There is not. But when I find one, I am going to ask the pastor to read my thesis. Most likely, he will ask me never to return.




The tired old lies is that all UPCI preachers see financial struggles as a lack of giving.

I NEVER said all, speaking of "tired old lies". Don't you see how you misrepresent, brother? But in my case, that is EXACTLY what happened. You simply do not ant to accept it because it makes you nervous and insecure.


Some brothers understand real world real time situations. If you are having issues they help you figure out how to get finances back up. All the brothers I have known and still know, point to disaster as being caused by a lack of giving Or that Jesus is chasing us down to kill us at every turn.

I've got a plan, thanks. I would not dream of joining a church again that teaches the tithe doctrine. I thought I could just ignore as I was giving 20% when my crash happened. I thought, "Even though I know this is a bogus doctrine, I don't mind giving far beyond 10%. I give because I love God". But what I discovered is my pastor did not get that 10% of zero is zero. Thus, I will never again join a church that teaches this manipulative, abusive lie.




Can't the 90 minute away brother help you out? By the way what is your secular expertice? Carpenter, mechanic, any trade experience?


His plate is full. Besides, I'm on the right tack with school. We'll come out of this.




Bro, does the old UPCI pastor know your situation?

Yes.






Well, you sure taught me about the two different women that he was supposedly were with. That video you posted makes you think.

What is this in reference to?




Bro, this isn't about any side but the Bible side, and I see clearly water baptism in Jesus name with the name Jesus invoked by baptizer as well as baptized repenting as a must.

I concur. I see that to. But I differ on what effect, if any, the baptizer's invocation actually has on the forgiveness of the one being baptized. That is truly the only area we differ on this matter.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

I never said what the baptizer says is irrelevant.

See how they keep misrepresenting?

Read my original post again to see what my point is.


It won't do any good.

Have you ever heard of anyone being baptized in someone's name besides, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or Jesus? I haven't, maybe a cult or something, but that's not my case. If it was I surely wouldn't be on this forum!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

I never said what the baptizer says is irrelevant. Read my original post again to see what my point is.

Have you ever heard of anyone being baptized in someone's name besides, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or Jesus? I haven't, maybe a cult or something, but that's not my case. If it was I surely wouldn't be on this forum!

I wasn't addressing you.

And O says I misrepresent, but if anyone read the parts you left out they will see I misrepresented nothing.

[Esaias]

O said:
"It is actually quite the opposite. Any law school drop-out knows what it means to do something in the name of another. For the baptizee, confession with the mouth is required. For the baptizer, there is nothing that requires him to say anything, nor is there any link between his invocation and the forgiveness of the sins of the one being baptized. You are claiming relevance to the baptizer's words being connected to forgiveness, I am not. The burden of proof is on you."

See? 1. Again, you refuse to make a Scriptural case. 2. Now you shift the burden of proof. 3. I ALREADY PROVED MY CASE, but you just refuse to interact with data except to yell "heresy" and some mumbling about law school drop outs.

So, this is why it's round the mulberry bush with you. You make no case, refuse to support your theories, use ad hominems, and just repeat your opinions. Ergo, discussion is impossible.