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01-15-2014, 09:24 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Neither of Paul's Epistles to the believers in Thessalonica didn't mention baptism. Are we to believe because he didn't write about baptism that it's not important?
When reading the Epistles, you have to understand that the Epistles aren't the full doctrine of the early church, nor of Paul's beliefs. Each Epistle was written to a certain body of believers, for a specific reason.
The lack of something written shouldn't suggest its lack of importance in doctrine.
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01-15-2014, 09:28 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
Neither of Paul's Epistles to the believers in Thessalonica didn't mention baptism. Are we to believe because he didn't write about baptism that it's not important?
When reading the Epistles, you have to understand that the Epistles aren't the full doctrine of the early church, nor of Paul's beliefs. Each Epistle was written to a certain body of believers, for a specific reason.
The lack of something written shouldn't suggest its lack of importance in doctrine.
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But baptism is mentioned many times in other epistles  Sorry.. that point didn't quite make its mark ....
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01-15-2014, 09:30 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Where in this scripture is tongues mentioned as salvational, doctrinal, and foundational?
Hebrews 6:1-2 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the head and of eternal judgment."
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01-15-2014, 09:30 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
You have to be able to admit NDavid, that if Paul recognized the heaven/hell aspect that the OPs ascribe to the initial evidence tongues doctrine, that it would have been mentioned in passing, or referenced to at least ONCE in his writings?
But no, of course you don't want to admit that, because then that crumbles the whole tongues heaven/hell doctrine.
Don't get me wrong. There is no doubt Acts has clear proof of tongues as initial evidence. But it doesn't go any farther than that. The OP have taken it and placed it as salvational, which Paul or any of the other NT writers did.
You are side stepping the issue, as all OP do. You are upholding a doctrine that is used to send people to hell, that should not.
Instead, if more emphasis was placed on the fruits of the spirit, as Paul did, then perhaps we would see revivals in church that we are desiring. But people believe that just because they do or do not speak in tongues, that it is determining their salvation... and Paul NEVER once said that.
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I'm not sidestepping the issue. I'm simply stating that Paul didn't need to address tongues as initial evidence because he was speaking to the saints -- who had already received the experience.
Again, as stated in my last post, the lack of something written does not suggest its lack of importance in doctrine.
Did the saints in Thessalonica miss out because Paul didn't mention baptism in either of his two Epistles?
Each Epistle was written to address a certain situation the saints were dealing with. The Epistles are not intended to be Paul's beliefs or a synopsis of the early church doctrine.
Your argument reminds me of people who say, "Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin."
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01-15-2014, 09:31 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
But baptism is mentioned many times in other epistles  Sorry.. that point didn't quite make its mark ....
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Not to the believers in Thessalonica. Evidently it didn't matter much to that church, according to your argument.
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01-15-2014, 09:35 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
Where in this scripture is tongues mentioned as salvational, doctrinal, and foundational?
Hebrews 6:1-2 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the head and of eternal judgment."
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"Doctrine of baptisms..." Plural. Water and the Spirit. Mark 1:8, "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." What again is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?
Speaking in tongues.
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01-15-2014, 09:37 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
I'm not sidestepping the issue. I'm simply stating that Paul didn't need to address tongues as initial evidence because he was speaking to the saints -- who had already received the experience.
Again, as stated in my last post, the lack of something written does not suggest its lack of importance in doctrine.
Did the saints in Thessalonica miss out because Paul didn't mention baptism in either of his two Epistles?
Each Epistle was written to address a certain situation the saints were dealing with. The Epistles are not intended to be Paul's beliefs or a synopsis of the early church doctrine.
Your argument reminds me of people who say, "Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin."
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Paul mentions baptism many times in his writings, and even deals with tongues too. Yet never once does he mention tongues as a salvational thing. It would have been mentioned, along with baptism, if it is that essential to salvation.
As far as the homosexuality bit, Jesus never taught for women to have uncut hair either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
Not to the believers in Thessalonica. Evidently it didn't matter much to that church, according to your argument.
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Regardless, Paul does mention baptism in many of his writings.... tongues as a salvational thing is NEVER mentioned, and it seems that the scripture I posted from Hebrews should certainly have mentioned it, if it was that important of a doctrinal issue
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01-15-2014, 09:43 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
"Doctrine of baptisms..." Plural. Water and the Spirit. Mark 1:8, "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." What again is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?
Speaking in tongues.
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Sure, tongues is the initial evidence. We see that in Acts. But, what we are trying to discuss is the whole "if you don't speak in tongues you are going to hell": issue instead of teaching.... after receiving the initial evidence of tongues, if you don't begin to produce fruit of the spirit, then something went wrong, and the spirit of God not being active in your life, which could cause you to fall by the wayside, much as the seeds fell by the wayside in the parable Jesus taught.
The point I am trying to make is ... quite emphasizing the "tongues" as salvational, instead, teach on the fruit of the spirit, which is a far better measuring stick of one's relationship with the Lord.... which is what Paul did all through his writings, but the OP refuse to do that for the most part.
Tongues are looked at for evidence, instead of fruit of the spirit.
A believer must move on in his relationship with the Lord, and begin to produce fruit of the spirit, and THAT is the measuring stick that the Lord uses, not the tongues.
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01-15-2014, 09:50 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
When Jesus came to the churches in the book of Revelations, nothing is ever mentioned about them not speaking in tongues. Nope. Not there.
Instead, what we find is Jesus speaking to them of overcoming. How do you overcome, except by the spirit of the Lord producing fruit in your life, that in turn weeds out and destroys the work of the flesh? These are the things Paul, and the other NT writers spent time teaching. We must be overcomers.
Rev. 2:19 "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works, and the last to be more than the first."
What is Jesus referencing here? Tongues? Nope. Fruit of the spirit... charity (love), faith, patience!
Gal. 5:22 "But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against such there is no law."
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01-15-2014, 09:58 AM
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Re: How do you almost receive a gift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord
Sure, tongues is the initial evidence. We see that in Acts. But, what we are trying to discuss is the whole "if you don't speak in tongues you are going to hell": issue instead of teaching.... after receiving the initial evidence of tongues, if you don't begin to produce fruit of the spirit, then something went wrong, and the spirit of God not being active in your life, which could cause you to fall by the wayside, much as the seeds fell by the wayside in the parable Jesus taught.
The point I am trying to make is ... quite emphasizing the "tongues" as salvational, instead, teach on the fruit of the spirit, which is a far better measuring stick of one's relationship with the Lord.... which is what Paul did all through his writings, but the OP refuse to do that for the most part.
Tongues are looked at for evidence, instead of fruit of the spirit.
A believer must move on in his relationship with the Lord, and begin to produce fruit of the spirit, and THAT is the measuring stick that the Lord uses, not the tongues.
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You asked where in Hebrews 6:1-2 is tongues mentioned as salvational, doctrinal and foundational. It is certainly doctrinal and foundational, as pointed out already.
Is tongues salvific? IMO it is. You seem to try to take both sides by saying "sure, it's the initial evidence," but then stating it shouldn't be considered if you don't speak in tongues, you're going to hell.
Do you believe receiving the Holy Ghost is part of salvation, or subsequent to salvation? If you believe it's part of salvation, then a person must receive the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence being they speak in other tongues.
If you believe the Holy Ghost to be subsequent to salvation, then it's not important to have the initial evidence of tongues.
I would be classified a three-stepper. I believe repentance, and baptism of both water and the Holy Ghost, with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.
I do wholeheartedly agree with you that once the initial evidence has been exhibited, people should mature and demonstrate the fruit of the spirit in their lives. I would also agree that there is an overabundance of emphasis placed solely on tongues as a sign of salvation, rather than the gifts of the spirit. There's also the error of clothes and appearance being an indicator of salvation as well, but that's another discussion.
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