Forgiveness or Remission?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Regarding when remission occurs, for those who argue that it is before baptism, but after repentance, and that the preposition eis therefore means because of, or in regards to, then they must prove when any of the people in Acts 2 who listened to Simon Peter's sermon actually received forgiveness.

Was it when they were "pricked in their hearts" and cried out "men and brethren, what shall we do?"?

If so, then why did Simon Peter tell them they still needed to repent and be baptized?

If the pricking of their hearts and the demand to be told how to respond to Simon Peter's preaching was indicative of their repentance, Simon Peter should not have told them they needed to repent. Instead, Acts 2:38 should read "Be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ..."

But that's not how it reads. Simon started with repentance, which indicates that as far as he was concerned, the respondents had not repented, even while they were pricked in their hearts and demanding instruction.

As far as Simon was concerned, if they did not come forward and be baptized, there was no repentance.

For, Acts 2:41 reads, "then they that gladly received his word were baptized'. It does not read, "then they that gladly received his word repented". Their repentance is presumed as a prerequisite to their baptism.

It is therefore clear that without a baptism following the pricking of the heart and a desire to know what to do, there is no repentance, and therefore, no remission of sins.

Remission of sins therefore, takes place in baptism, and not before, as evidence for repentance.

John the Baptist commanded to bring fruit meet (acceptable) for repentance, while performing baptisms unto repentance. Therefore, baptism was a outward demonstration or production of repentance. Fruits are not the source, but grow out of the source.

Jesus was baptized why? Did he have to be forgiven of sin?

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

“Becometh”

Thayer Lexicon:
1. to stand out, to be conspicuous, to be eminent
2. to be becoming, seemly, fit

Again, it is eminent that people who are “forgiven” or who are “gonna be forgiven” (whichever) to be baptized. We may not have identical understanding on this issue, but I think we are essentially on the same page. Baptism is necessary.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

John the Baptist commanded to bring fruit meet (acceptable) for repentance, while performing baptisms unto repentance. Therefore, baptism was a outward demonstration or production of repentance. Fruits are not the source, but grow out of the source.

Jesus was baptized why? Did he have to be forgiven of sin?

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

“Becometh”

Thayer Lexicon:
1. to stand out, to be conspicuous, to be eminent
2. to be becoming, seemly, fit

Again, it is eminent that people who are “forgiven” or who are “gonna be forgiven” (whichever) to be baptized. We may not have identical understanding on this issue, but I think we are essentially on the same page. Baptism is necessary.

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by diakonos

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

Do you mind rewording the question? I am not sure what you are meaning.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by diakonos

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

Baptism is a commandment of Christ and the apostles. If we don’t keep His commands we are not His children.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by diakonos

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

Ah, good question. I suspect that since one must "be baptized... for the remission of sins" then one probably must have some kind of idea of the purpose of baptism. Baptism that is not "for the remission of sins" isn't actually Christian baptism.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Ah, good question. I suspect that since one must "be baptized... for the remission of sins" then one probably must have some kind of idea of the purpose of baptism. Baptism that is not "for the remission of sins" isn't actually Christian baptism.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by diakonos

But, is baptism efficacious if it is required for the forgiveness of sins, and one is baptized believing that it is done because they are already saved?

I think baptism is effective regardless of when one believes the atonement is applied in the process.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

John the Baptist commanded to bring fruit meet (acceptable) for repentance, while performing baptisms unto repentance. Therefore, baptism was a outward demonstration or production of repentance. Fruits are not the source, but grow out of the source.

John's baptism was not just a baptism unto repentance, but was a baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins:

Mark 1:4 (KJV),

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Jesus was baptized why? Did he have to be forgiven of sin?

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

“Becometh”

Thayer Lexicon:
1. to stand out, to be conspicuous, to be eminent
2. to be becoming, seemly, fit

You answer your own question with the quotation of Matthew 3:15. Christ's baptism was to fulfill all righteousness.

Again, it is eminent that people who are “forgiven” or who are “gonna be forgiven” (whichever) to be baptized. We may not have identical understanding on this issue, but I think we are essentially on the same page. Baptism is necessary.

Brother, I do not think we are on same page. I would not trust to believe a single person who hasn't been baptized, but made a confession of faith in Christ, is saved.

The body of sins must be destroyed. Short of that, the ledger is still in the red.

[good samaritan]

History tells of martyrs that experienced horrible deaths for the name of Jesus, who may not have been doctrinally sound. If they died sinners without forgiveness, I am fully trusting in the righteousness of God. Although, I believe, knowing the mercy of God that we may have many surprises in eternity, and we will have all of our misunderstandings reconciled.

[james34]

Is repentance a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost, and if so why?