Random Questions Thread

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

But does the “is applied to Jesus” also make Jesus the true Israel?
Or just “we, the called out ones”, or both?

Jesus is head of the Church, and the Church is the Israel of God. God manifested in flesh, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, to fulfill the promises to Abraham and David to reach the Gentile nations and establish the Kingdom of God on the earth.

Jesus is called Israel:
Isaiah 49:3: "He said to me, 'You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.'" This prophecy refers to the Messiah, Jesus.

Matthew 2:15: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
This verse quotes Hosea 11:1, referring to Israel's exodus from Egypt, but applied to Jesus, signifying Him as the true Son of God and Israel.

The Church is called the Israel of God:
Galatians 6:16: "Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God."

Physical vs Spiritual Israel:
Romans 9:6-8: "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they necessarily Abraham's children..."

Spiritual Israel:
1 Peter 2:9-10: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession... Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God."

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

But does the “is applied to Jesus” also make Jesus the true Israel?
Or just “we, the called out ones”, or both?

Jesus is the "true Israel" just as He is the "true Man", which doesn't negate the fact that we also are "men". Jesus is THE Son of God but so are we.

Abraham's seed being a blessing to all nations etc is fulfilled by Abraham's descendants taking the knowledge of Christ (the blessing, THE anointed "seed") to all nations.

[Amanah]

Elder Esaias has a YouTube series on Romans. Here are the videos on Romans 11:

https://youtu.be/q9wgI-PrIVs?si=EbQFfHzmERQQUkb6

**

https://youtu.be/q9wgI-PrIVs?si=vC6twHLqEMm11pEA

**

https://youtu.be/2W5RuH-2Lvg?si=nhcowGXbhgBEU4jS

**

[Amanah]

Shag:

Here are scripture references to help:

- Romans 11:17-24 (olive tree analogy)
- Hosea 1:9-10 (Israel declared "Not My People")
- Genesis 12:3; 15:5; 17:4-6 (Abraham's descendants to become a multitude of nations)
- Ezekiel 37:15-28 (reunion of Judah and Israel under Messiah)
- Ephesians 2:11-22 (unity of Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ)
- Galatians 3:28-29 (no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ)

[Amanah]

Here are scriptures showing Paul's identities:

Identifying as a Jew

* Acts 21:39 - "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city..."
* Acts 22:3 - "...I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia..."

Identifying as a Spiritual Jew

* Romans 2:28-29 - "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly...but he is a Jew who is one inwardly."
* Philippians 3:3 - "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit..."

Identifying as an Israelite

* Romans 11:1 - "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."
* 2 Corinthians 11:22 - "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I."

Paul's identities:

- Biological: Benjaminite Israelite
- Cultural: Jew
- Spiritual: Jew inwardly, part of spiritual Israel

[shag]

a “Spiritual Jew”?
Where did you get that?
I’m not sure I can agree



Spiritual Jews and non spiritual Jews?

https://biblehub.com/romans/2-28.htm

https://biblehub.com/romans/2-29.htm



I’m seeing true genuine Jews vs non true genuine(not real Jews)

[Amanah]

Romans 2:28-29 ESV
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Philippians 3:3 ESV
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—

[shag]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Romans 2:28-29 ESV
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Philippians 3:3 ESV
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—

Are you meaning that a “Spiritual Jew” is a (True) Jew? (the same thing?)
(So therefore a non spiritual Jew is not a true Jew)
What exactly is “by the Spirit”?
They had “heart circumcision” in the old as well, so werent they “Spiritual Jews in the old, and if they did not have spiritual circumcision of the heart, they weren’t actual Jews(since it’s about the heart(inward) circumcision?

And if Paul is explaining a “Spiritual Jew” vs a non spiritual Jew”, would the text simply say, “a spiritual Jew is one who…” but rather he’s defining between who is in fact a genuine true Jew, and who is not?


Please explain (how you are seeing “Spiritual Jew” as it relates to whether a person is a true Jew.)
Who is and who isn’t and why…

Alot of questions, but I think you follow what I’m trying to resolve, if that makes since what I’m asking….
Thank you Amanah

[Amanah]

Shag.
In the Old Testament to be in a covenant relationship with God required physical circumcision. The new covenant requires spiritual circumcision.

New Covenant circumcision refers to a spiritual circumcision that occurs through faith in Jesus Christ, as described in Romans 2:29 and Colossians 2:11-12. This spiritual circumcision is not physical, but rather a transformation of the heart, accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 8:8-10, Acts 2).

In the Old Testament, physical circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham's descendants. However, with the coming of Jesus Christ, the significance of circumcision shifted from physical to spiritual. Jesus taught that true circumcision is of the heart, not just the flesh (Deuteronomy 10:16, Jeremiah 4:4, Hebrews 8:8-10).

New Covenant Circumcision is:

*Spiritual Transformation: It involves a change of heart, where one's old nature is "cut away" and replaced with a new one in Christ (Colossians 2:11-12)

*Faith-Based: This circumcision occurs through faith in Jesus Christ, making it accessible to all who believe, regardless of physical descent (Romans 4:11-12).

*Baptismal: Baptism is tied to spiritual circumcision and the believer's union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12, Acts 2:38)

*The New Covenant circumcision is not a physical act, but a spiritual reality that occurs through faith and the work of the Holy Spirit.

So now true Jews are those who are in a covenant relationship with God, which in the new covenant means obeying the gospel, Acts 2:38.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Shag.
In the Old Testament to be in a covenant relationship with God required physical circumcision. The new covenant requires spiritual circumcision.

New Covenant circumcision refers to a spiritual circumcision that occurs through faith in Jesus Christ, as described in Romans 2:29 and Colossians 2:11-12. This spiritual circumcision is not physical, but rather a transformation of the heart, accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 8:8-10, Acts 2).

In the Old Testament, physical circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham's descendants. However, with the coming of Jesus Christ, the significance of circumcision shifted from physical to spiritual. Jesus taught that true circumcision is of the heart, not just the flesh (Deuteronomy 10:16, Jeremiah 4:4, Hebrews 8:8-10).

New Covenant Circumcision is:

*Spiritual Transformation: It involves a change of heart, where one's old nature is "cut away" and replaced with a new one in Christ (Colossians 2:11-12)

*Faith-Based: This circumcision occurs through faith in Jesus Christ, making it accessible to all who believe, regardless of physical descent (Romans 4:11-12).

*Baptismal: Baptism is tied to spiritual circumcision and the believer's union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12, Acts 2:38)

*The New Covenant circumcision is not a physical act, but a spiritual reality that occurs through faith and the work of the Holy Spirit.

So now true Jews are those who are in a covenant relationship with God, which in the new covenant means obeying the gospel, Acts 2:38.

How can it be only a new covenant heart/spiritual circumcision, if it was told to them/used in the old covenant, in the bolded verses?