Random Questions Thread

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And we haven't even gotten into the "seed of the serpent" yet...

Is it similar to this:

1. Cain's lineage: (Serpent Seed)
2. Ham's wife: Associated with Cain's lineage, corrupting Noah's family
3. Canaanites: Descendants of Cain, cursed by Noah
4. Esau and Edomites: Linked to Cain's lineage, enemies of God's people
5. Herodian dynasty: Edomite descendants, influencing Jewish leadership
6. Synagogue of Satan: Herodian-Edomite Jews opposing Jesus
7. Jewish aristocracy: Connected to Herodian-Edomite lineage
8. European royalty: Descendants of Edomites, ruling through Zionism
9. Zionism and Modern Israel: Seen as serpent seed strongholds

[shag]

Hebrews 8 New Covenant between God and the house of Israel and Judah.


Heb. 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7..For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8..For he finds fault with them when he says:[c]
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
..when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
..and with the house of Judah,
9..
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
........on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
..and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10..
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
..after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
..and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
..and they shall be my people.
11..
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
..and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
..from the least of them to the greatest.
12..
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
..and I will remember their sins no more.”
13..In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



So…I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but the fact that we are 2000 years into the New Covenant, and the physical nation of Israel (98% atkeast in 2024) (and…those that claim to be Gods chosen) has rejected the the testator of the new covenant, Jesus. They are not in an old covenant and not in a new covenant with God, so therefore the writer of Hebrews HAS to be speaking of those that ARE in new covenant with Him, even when he says, Israel or House of Judah, he means by way of the SEED of Christ, because Jesus was of the lineage of Judah. The promises come to His offspring, the True Israel.

It makes no since that Israel caught between 2 covenants for 2k years is not in covenant, meanwhile the body of Christ is in covenant, but we aren’t Israel or Judah so he couldn’t be talking about us…we’re just sideliners…

I mean how in the world are people seeing this(dispensationalist)?
How are they making since if this? Are they thinking this is still some often the distance future thing, when they stop rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?
(Sincere question)


To me, Rom 9’s true Israel & the Olive Tree engrafting is the only logical explanation.
We have become and united w Gods true Israel…those w a circumcised heart.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Hebrews 8 New Covenant between God and the house of Israel and Judah.


Heb. 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7..For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8..For he finds fault with them when he says:[c]
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
..when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
..and with the house of Judah,
9..
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
........on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
..and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10..
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
..after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
..and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
..and they shall be my people.
11..
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
..and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
..from the least of them to the greatest.
12..
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
..and I will remember their sins no more.”
13..In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



So…I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but the fact that we are 2000 years into the New Covenant, and the physical nation of Israel (98% atkeast in 2024) (and…those that claim to be Gods chosen) has rejected the the testator of the new covenant, Jesus. They are not in an old covenant and not in a new covenant with God, so therefore the writer of Hebrews HAS to be speaking of those that ARE in new covenant with Him, even when he says, Israel or House of Judah, he means by way of the SEED of Christ, because Jesus was of the lineage of Judah. The promises come to His offspring, the True Israel.

It makes no since that Israel caught between 2 covenants for 2k years is not in covenant, meanwhile the body of Christ is in covenant, but we aren’t Israel or Judah so he couldn’t be talking about us…we’re just sideliners…

I mean how in the world are people seeing this(dispensationalist)?
How are they making since if this? Are they thinking this is still some often the distance future thing, when they stop rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?
(Sincere question)


To me, Rom 9’s true Israel & the Olive Tree engrafting is the only logical explanation.
We have become and united w Gods true Israel…those w a circumcised heart.

[Amanah]

The plan of God always has been to use Israel to save all nations. When Israel through disobedience was invaded by the Assyrians, she became dispersed and integrated into the nations losing identity, becoming the nations.

Jesus, a Judean and ancestor of Abraham, is the salvation for all nations. Through the new covenant he is saving Israel. The true Israel of God, us.

[shag]

Good stuff. Good study topic


So I ran across this in my favorite book, Hebrews
Hadnt noticed it before.


Heb. 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Is it similar to this:

1. Cain's lineage: (Serpent Seed)
2. Ham's wife: Associated with Cain's lineage, corrupting Noah's family
3. Canaanites: Descendants of Cain, cursed by Noah
4. Esau and Edomites: Linked to Cain's lineage, enemies of God's people
5. Herodian dynasty: Edomite descendants, influencing Jewish leadership
6. Synagogue of Satan: Herodian-Edomite Jews opposing Jesus
7. Jewish aristocracy: Connected to Herodian-Edomite lineage
8. European royalty: Descendants of Edomites, ruling through Zionism
9. Zionism and Modern Israel: Seen as serpent seed strongholds

Well, I was actually just kind of making a joke.

But since you brought it up...

I have heard the various theories:

1. The seed of the serpent is entirely spiritual. Anyone who "follows the ways of the serpent", that is, opposes God, takes upon themselves the identity of the seed or offspring or progeny of the serpent. So being "seed of the serpent" is entirely metaphorical.

2. Cain was fathered by a union between the serpent and Eve, and his descendants or seed continued through the Flood and exist today somewhere. This is usually amalgamated to the next one,

3. Cain's serpent-human hybrid descendants somehow became Canaanites (not sure how that is explained though). So the Canaanites were the descendants of the serpent. And,

4. Since Esau married a Canaanite woman, his descendants (Edomites) are the current seed of the serpent.

I think all of these theories have problems that I have not been able to resolve. 2-4 just don't make any sense, and don't seem to have any Biblical backing. How Cainites became Canaanites escapes me, and even though Esau did marry a Canaanite woman his descendants are identified in Scripture as "your brother" and were allowed into the congregation of the Lord after the 3rd generation. Eventually they became the people against whom the Lord had indignation forever, but you would think it would have been that way from the beginning if they were literal reptilian-human hybrids descended from the serpent in the Garden.

#1 seems much more plausible, yet there is still a problem. The seed of the serpent is compared to and contrasted with the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman (Adam's descendants in general, and Christ in particular) is a literal physical seed. Which implies the seed of the serpent would also be a literal physical seed. There is no mention of hybridization, so there is no concern on my part as "did the seed of the serpent marry or have relations with any of Adam's descendants?" Rather, there is the question of who are the actual literal seed of the serpent and are they still around.

I find it interesting that the Bible seems pretty silent after the initial Genesis account about any serpent offspring. There may be vague hints here or there, but nothing conclusive or solid, that I can find.

But the fact remains, there was a serpent, a "nachash" (not a common snake, but some kind of intelligent reptilian-like creature). Indo-European and Asian cultures all have references to the mythical "nagas" or serpentine reptilian beings, which were (and are) believed to be shape-shifting humanoid-like fiery or shining reptilian creatures, highly intelligent, often deceptive, and worshipped as a type of divine beings or race of demigods, allegedly responsible for teaching mankind various skills and knowledge (including hidden secret mystical wisdom). The correspondence between the term "nagas" and Hebrew "nachash" is unmistakable, as is the reptilian or serpent-like character, and the meaning of "shining" and "fiery" being applied to them, as well as the idea of these things teaching man "wisdom" (or claiming to).

The nachash (naga) in the Garden was intelligent, cunning, could speak, could deceive, and was at enmity with the offspring of the woman. I have a theory or hypothesis of my own that this serpent and his fellows may have been partly responsible for the Flood, in leading mankind into corruption and iniquity and error, and the pre-Flood civilisation may have worshipped the naga(s) as a god/gods. If so, a cult may have developed around them. They may have been destroyed by the Flood, but the cult may have survived. Noah and his family would have been aware of this possibly dominant religion of their day, and Canaan or Ham or one of their children may have revived that serpent-cult. Which then may have continued on down through the ages until perhaps even today.

Of course, if the Flood was a local flood and not a "planetary" flood (which I believe it was a local Flood) then the serpent cult could have survived the Flood era quite easily by having been exported outside the environs of the Flood civilisation. Therefore, cultures that were not destroyed by the Flood would have continued the cult on their own. In fact, if the Flood was local, then it is possible the nagas themselves could have survived, and might even still be around.

If so, the seed of the nachash would be a literal reptilian race, and humans would be "adopted" as metaphorical or spiritual "seed of the serpent" by following the serpent cult. This might shed some light on the use of dragon symbolism in the Bible to represent rulers like Pharaoh, and especially in the Revelation to represent the Roman adversarial power. Perhaps the Roman adversarial power was controlled by those who were members of the ancient serpent cult. Perhaps this is why one of the medieval orders of nobility and knighthood was the Order of the Dragon, whose most famous member was Vlad "the Impaler",a noble of Wallachia who defended Europe against the Ottoman Turk invasions and who became immortalised in modern times by being the basis of Bram Stoker's "Dracula". Perhaps the members of the Order considered themselves knights of the serpent cult, while pretending to be defenders of (catholic) Christendom.

Perhaps the "illuminati elites" of our day are members of that same serpent cult. Who knows, maybe there's even a real naga somewhere giving orders...

Let me find my special sunglasses to see if They truly Live...

[shag]

8..For he finds fault with them when he says:[c]
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
..when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
..and with the house of Judah,
9..
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
........on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
..and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10..
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
..after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
..and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
..and they shall be my people.
11..
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
..and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
..from the least of them to the greatest.
12..
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
..and I will remember their sins no more.”
13..In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


So after reading a couple of commentaries, it’s my understanding that from at least a dispensationlist view, they believe that this passage, even after 2000 years is not fulfilled or at least not altogether fulfilled. And then it requires the rapturing of everyone out, and then God Will establish the new covenant with Israel, (namely Judah, and Benjamin I suppose).



Is that accurate or am I amiss on that?




If that is in fact the case, I guess my first thought of primary argument would be, the new and better covenant has already been established, that would mean it’s not waiting to be established or fully established, when the other party gets around to it.


We are either in the new covenant or not, we can’t be in the New Testament and yet not fully in the new covenant. Makes no sense to me. I’ve never liked that “already but not yet saying”.

[Amanah]

Hebrews 12 emphasizes the present reality of the New Covenant:


The Old Covenant's Limitations:

Hebrews 12:18-21
18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”


The New Covenant's Present Reality:

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

8..For he finds fault with them when he says:[c]
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
..when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
..and with the house of Judah,
9..
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
........on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
..and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10..
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
..after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
..and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
..and they shall be my people.
11..
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
..and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
..from the least of them to the greatest.
12..
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
..and I will remember their sins no more.”
13..In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


So after reading a couple of commentaries, it’s my understanding that from at least a dispensationlist view, they believe that this passage, even after 2000 years is not fulfilled or at least not altogether fulfilled. And then it requires the rapturing of everyone out, and then God Will establish the new covenant with Israel, (namely Judah, and Benjamin I suppose).



Is that accurate or am I amiss on that?




If that is in fact the case, I guess my first thought of primary argument would be, the new and better covenant has already been established, that would mean it’s not waiting to be established or fully established, when the other party gets around to it.


We are either in the new covenant or not, we can’t be in the New Testament and yet not fully in the new covenant. Makes no sense to me. I’ve never liked that “already but not yet saying”.

I've heard dispensationalists say the new covenant is for the Jews only and has not gone into effect yet, we as Christians are not in the new covenant, we are in something else (not sure what).

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I've heard dispensationalists say the new covenant is for the Jews only and has not gone into effect yet, we as Christians are not in the new covenant, we are in something else (not sure what).

I have never heard that.