Tulsa Report Day 2

[StillStanding]

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

Friend this is so unlike you I had to look twice to see if it was you. Are you having a bad day? To say it is a facade is so impugning could it change you bet. Why wouldn't they be happy with 1000 preachers showing up on such a short notice?

I get a funny feeling when I hear about how they did not bash the UPCI. Does anyone realize that if they did bash the UPCI at this public meeting that it would have a negative affect on the fence sitters? I mean this is an anti-upci as it gets. These men are seeking position and affirmation since they could not find it in the UPC. Look at how many of the Tulsa team have lost recent election in the upc. Do we think they would be resigning to go to Tulsa? I say no way.

Just like the AMF of the 70s. They are trying not to be, but its hard to start a successful organization that is formed out of division. When division is your motivation it becomes your foundation.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Friend this is so unlike you I had to look twice to see if it was you. Are you having a bad day? To say it is a facade is so impugning could it change you bet. Why wouldn't they be happy with 1000 preachers showing up on such a short notice?

Bro Epley, you are correct! The use of the word "facade" was too strong for this issue! "Facade" means a fake front. I don't believe the face of the Tulsa group is totally fake. I do believe they put on a positive face!

I was wrong for using such a strong word! I apologize!

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

All of this "they never bashed the UPC at all" stuff is a little sick. They didn't have to. They had already delivered a crushing and painful blow by their divisive actions.
Anyone ever hear of rhetoric? Or duplicity? They are saying one thing, while something totally different is taking place. For the life of me I cannot understand this fixation some have upon what is said. They are not "bashing" the UPC, they are just carving it up, or carving out a slice for them to control. Not bashing?

Additionally, what about the flyer sent to thousands of preachers citing a "preferred" apostolic future? Preferred over whom or what? Does that not knote a certain "we are taking the right way while the others are off the path"?

We who have remained with the certainly flawed UPC certainly have a right to take affront at such statements.

Again, watch what happens, don't listen only to what is said.

[jrLA]

The thing that really bugs me is that these men are very crafty speakers. I feel that a bill of goods has been sold to those in attendance. There is NOTHING right about division....

This buisiness of co-existing....what are these people thinking. It is a very sad day! I grieve in my spirit over this.

But.....Life does go on and so does the work of God. THe job will be as it has always been, get to work reaping the harvest! Bro. Tenney say...Keep the main thing the main thing! I intend on it!

Originally Posted by jrLA

The thing that really bugs me is that these men are very crafty speakers. I feel that a bill of goods has been sold to those in attendance. There is NOTHING right about division....

This buisiness of co-existing....what are these people thinking. It is a very sad day! I grieve in my spirit over this.

But.....Life does go on and so does the work of God. THe job will be as it has always been, get to work reaping the harvest! Bro. Tenney say...Keep the main thing the main thing! I intend on it!

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

[jrLA]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

First of all, thanks for the respect. I am very pleased that these men conducted themselves in a Godly manner. I am pleased that there was a good spirit and that they condoned no UPC bashing and that they made that clear. My worry or feelings of concern is in the fact that the very action seems so rediculous to me, to find a "perferred direction". We are the church and God does not glory in our finding our own way of doing things but in coming together to do things. He is pleased for men to dwell together in unity, not to be headed in different directions.

By in large, fundamentaly, we all believe the same thing. It just seem less than right to not be able to come together to accomplish this endtime push for revival.

I've watched several of these men all of my life. I have admired their stand for God and leadership. I am just dissapointed this has happened.

I am not crying, I am dissappointed! I think things could have been different.

Yes, I am sincere, but NO you would not find me in the Tulsa crowd. I Don't believe so!

By the way, steadfast....I amire your posts....usually!

Originally Posted by jrLA

My worry or feelings of concern is in the fact that the very action seems so rediculous to me, to find a "perferred direction". We are the church and God does not glory in our finding our own way of doing things but in coming together to do things. He is pleased for men to dwell together in unity, not to be headed in different directions.

Yes... "How good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"... but what do you do when can't 'dwell together'?

The same Bible that says that also said, "How can two walk together except the agree?" jrLA, there are times that unity is NOT pleasing to God! You seem to imply that these men should overlook what they are actually convicted by God about for the sole purpose of 'unity'. Is that really what it takes to please God?

Their 'breaking point' may be advertising on television... yours and mine are probably somewhere else. However, the principle remains the same; if you've read my prior post you need to answer the question for me...

Should I take my Church to 'fellowship meetings' with a Church that casually drinks... for the sake of 'unity'?

Should I take my Church to fellowship with people who believe that trinity mode baptism in the titles is as good as Jesus Name baptism because it's just a 'sign that doesn't mean much'... all for the sake of unity?

Unity is a great thing. Unity at the cost of sacrificing genuine convictions is not pleasing to God.

I respect the men who left. They are living by their convictions. I intend to live by mine. But I won't put a price tag on my calling to protect my Saints just for the sake of 'unity'.

[jrLA]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Yes... "How good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"... but what do you do when can't 'dwell together'?

The same Bible that says that also said, "How can two walk together except the agree?" jrLA, there are times that unity is NOT pleasing to God! You seem to imply that these men should overlook what they are actually convicted by God about for the sole purpose of 'unity'. Is that really what it takes to please God?

Their 'breaking point' may be advertising on television... yours and mine are probably somewhere else. However, the principle remains the same; if you've read my prior post you need to answer the question for me...

Should I take my Church to 'fellowship meetings' with a Church that casually drinks... for the sake of 'unity'?

Should I take my Church to fellowship with people who believe that trinity mode baptism in the titles is as good as Jesus Name baptism because it's just a 'sign that doesn't mean much'... all for the sake of unity?

Unity is a great thing. Unity at the cost of sacrificing genuine convictions is not pleasing to God.

I respect the men who left. They are living by their convictions. I intend to live by mine. But I won't put a price tag on my calling to protect my Saints just for the sake of 'unity'.

Standing for your convictions is one thing. I applaud you for that. You do have a right to protect your people, that is for sure. You should feel that way.

Of course, there are times when your conviction outwieghs your committment to unity. I understand that. It is just that these men are not motivated by simple conviction. This organization or Fellowship has men on their general committee that ARE NOT conservative. I know for a fact. Their churches are the most liberal in the area! So, how can it be just about conviction and holiness! No, friend that may be their battle cry, but it isn't the true motive. That is for sure. Try politics...position... Now that is my opinion. But it seems very obvious. I may not be as old as you are, but I know some things as well! And...those things did not come from this forum!

The UPC is a very diverse group. Literally from one end of the spectrum to the other. I believe that is one of the things that makes us great. I certainly don't agree with eveything my brethren do or the nieghboring church does. There are instances where there MAY need to be restrictions on fellowship, but in my expirience that is few and far between.

I believe in teaching my people to live for GOd for themselves. Get your convictions for you! Don't pay attention to what the other church is doing as far as your convictions. There are hipocrites in EVERY church! I've got to learn to keep my eyes on God not them. Just as Peter stepped out of the boat and took his eyes off of Jesus and sunk....so will I if I take my eyes off of Jesus. I am not sure if always sheltering folks from reality is the best way to protect them. (jmo)

Steadfast....You pastor with great wisdom and I applaud you for seeking to protect your folks. But, I don't believe that is the same thing as this Tulsa business! Not the same at all!