Random Questions Thread

[shag]

Regarding Rom. 2:28-29


Rom. 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.




Can a person be a Jew without the circumcision of the heart?

I would say according to this passage, it says, no they cannot. (No matter a persons opinion of what a Jew even is, it says what it says).


That is agreeable with a simple, yes, correct?



(it does not say spiritual Jew, it just says Jew, in every version, so that can be irrelevant)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Regarding Rom. 2:28-29


Rom. 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.




Can a person be a Jew without the circumcision of the heart?

I would say according to this passage, it says, no they cannot. (No matter a persons opinion of what a Jew even is, it says what it says).


That is agreeable with a simple, yes, correct?



(it does not say spiritual Jew, it just says Jew, in every version, so that can be irrelevant)

The reason people use the term "true Jew" or "spiritual Jew" is because Paul elsewhere uses the term "Jew" to refer to unregenerate Pharisees and natural Israelites following the Judean culture and religion. So, here in romans 2, Paul is obviously trying to point out that God does not recognise a person as a "Judean" (ie in covenant with God) if they are uncircumcised in heart, but does recognise the "Greek/gentile" who IS circumcised in heart as if they were Judeans (in covenant with God). So, the term "true" is added to distinguish between those who are religiously or culturally Jews but who are not circumcised in heart (they are basically acting like heathen gentiles and can expect to wind up like heathen Gentiles if they don't change their ways) on the one hand, and people whether "Jew" or "Greek" who have been circumcised in heart to follow Christ and actually obey God.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The reason people use the term "true Jew" or "spiritual Jew" is because Paul elsewhere uses the term "Jew" to refer to unregenerate Pharisees and natural Israelites following the Judean culture and religion. So, here in romans 2, Paul is obviously trying to point out that God does not recognise a person as a "Judean" (ie in covenant with God) if they are uncircumcised in heart, but does recognise the "Greek/gentile" who IS circumcised in heart as if they were Judeans (in covenant with God). So, the term "true" is added to distinguish between those who are religiously or culturally Jews but who are not circumcised in heart (they are basically acting like heathen gentiles and can expect to wind up like heathen Gentiles if they don't change their ways) on the one hand, and people whether "Jew" or "Greek" who have been circumcised in heart to follow Christ and actually obey God.

Paul was writing to a first century church whose members were Jews and Gentiles, which has to be kept in mind when trying to apply it to our current age. It's a different situation today trying to apply the same verses to the current nation of Israel which has a culture of Judaism and are definitely not in a covenant relationship with God. I think that causes confusion.

Paul says "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly" They were legit Judeans, not wannabes. But if their heart wasn't right they would be considered uncircumcised.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The reason people use the term "true Jew" or "spiritual Jew" is because Paul elsewhere uses the term "Jew" to refer to unregenerate Pharisees and natural Israelites following the Judean culture and religion. So, here in romans 2, Paul is obviously trying to point out that God does not recognise a person as a "Judean" (ie in covenant with God) if they are uncircumcised in heart, but does recognise the "Greek/gentile" who IS circumcised in heart as if they were Judeans (in covenant with God). So, the term "true" is added to distinguish between those who are religiously or culturally Jews but who are not circumcised in heart (they are basically acting like heathen gentiles and can expect to wind up like heathen Gentiles if they don't change their ways) on the one hand, and people whether "Jew" or "Greek" who have been circumcised in heart to follow Christ and actually obey God.

Thank you brother Esaias.
That makes since in my thick head.

[shag]

Matt. 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


Are the “lost sheep”, basically descendants from all 12 tribes?

[Amanah]

Switching the thought pattern away from confusing definitions.

True circumcision (Romans 2:25-29) is tied "to the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16)

Galatians 6:15-16
15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

True circumcision isn't about physical circumcision, but heart circumcision. The Israel of God encompasses believers from all backgrounds. New creation in Christ supersedes ethnic identity.

* Unity among believers(Galatians 3:28).
* Justification by faith (Romans 3:24-25).
* New covenant relationship with God (Hebrews 8:10-12, Act 2).

[shag]

Thank you Amanah.
I will read back through, and ponder the posts & scriptures.
Im curious if u attend upc?
You don’t have to answer that… I only ask because I do,(25 years +)and there seems to be quite a bit that I don’t agree with, basically regarding dispensational teaching….to which I have 5 kids “learning” what of it is taught.
“Eat the fish and spit out the bones”….pretty bony fish sometimes…

(I realize of course, disp teaching is WAY beyond the upc)

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you Amanah.
I will read back through, and ponder the posts & scriptures.
Im curious if u attend upc?
You don’t have to answer that… I only ask because I do,(25 years +)and there seems to be quite a bit that I don’t agree with, basically regarding dispensational teaching….to which I have 4 kids “learning” what of it is taught.
“Eat the fish and spit out the bones”….pretty bony fish sometimes…

(I realize of course, disp teaching is well beyond the upc)

Shag, I was a member of an independent oneness church for many years, then part of the UPCI for 10+ years. I left the UPCI to be with the CACI because of doctrinal differences. And now I'm finding things with the CACI that don't align with Scripture.

You are in a Oneness Pentecostal Church where your kids are being taught Acts 2:38 salvation. Holy Ghost infilling with tongues as initial evidence. Living a holy life style. Thank God for the gospel truth you and your precious family are privileged to know. There is nothing more valuable than raising your kids in church. People's beliefs on Eschatology are all over the place, it's likely none of us have it all figured out. Don't worry about it.

Keep your babies in church, blessings to your family in Jesus name.

***
p.s. I enjoy coming here to discuss scripture, it's a learning experience for me. Thanks for our discussions.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you Amanah.
I will read back through, and ponder the posts & scriptures.
Im curious if u attend upc?
You don’t have to answer that… I only ask because I do,(25 years +)and there seems to be quite a bit that I don’t agree with, basically regarding dispensational teaching….to which I have 5 kids “learning” what of it is taught.
“Eat the fish and spit out the bones”….pretty bony fish sometimes…

(I realize of course, disp teaching is WAY beyond the upc)

Hey Shag,

I was thinking about this convo this morning and how to resolve being in a congregation with doctrinal differences.

I can study and learn on my own and even come here to discuss doctrine. But, I need congregational prayer and worship. Most of the preaching and teaching that comes over the UPCI pulpit is light on substance anyway after being in church for awhile.

[Esaias]

Meanwhile this place is under a bot attack and there is nobody around to clean it up.