James Strong, KJV, Redefinitions of words?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'm simply tracking the original ideas behind words, not later usages (ex., temperance has the meaning of total abstinence from alcohol, a purely social concept invented in the 1800s by the "temperance movement"). Of course, words are social things, evolving as society's ideas and values evolve.

Interestingly, temperare is related to tempus, which means time, grammatical tense, the temples of your face, the face, and the weather.

The temples (anatomical) are the "right spot", the idea coming from tempus as analogous to Greek kairos (right time, place, or situation for something). But why would the temples be considered " the right spot"? Possibly because the Latins were a warlike race of people, and the right spot is seen as the vital or fatal spot... again the military connection. I can see that military connection in the sense of tempus as weather as well, since the weather determines the right time for military campaigns. The weather is how you "see" the right time, thus tempus becomes associated with "the face of the sky" and then the face of a person.

Time changes, thus tempus becomes grammatical tense or inflection (which changes).

It comes from the ancient IndoEuropean "tempos, temp-" which means to stretch something out. Related to IndoEuropean templum or shrine (religious temple), as a building that stretches up to heaven.

I could go on for days chasing this stuff down, looking for "what were the original ideas behind these words?"

Ok. I get it. I like looking into the same things. Philology, after all.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Yes, but Cicero lived in the first century BC. How he would have defined temperantia versus how it was defined when it entered into use in Middle English over 1,000 years later are two different things.

Another thing, Cicero and his usages played a MAJOR role in medieval Latin, both grammatically, rhetorically, and philosophically. There is a continuous flow from the Classical period to the Reformation in words, thoughts, ideas, etc. Evolution, yes, but not wholesale disconnectedness. That didn't come about until the rise of post-Reformation humanist ideas ("renaissance") and modernism.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Another thing, Cicero and his usages played a MAJOR role in medieval Latin, both grammatically, rhetorically, and philosophically. There is a continuous flow from the Classical period to the Reformation in words, thoughts, ideas, etc. Evolution, yes, but not wholesale disconnectedness. That didn't come about until the rise of post-Reformation humanist ideas ("renaissance") and modernism.

Be that as it may, when it came time to translate egkrateia, starting with Wycliffe, they chose an Anglicized form of temperantia. But when they translated sophrosune, they used sobriety and soberness (In 1 Timothy 2:9 and 15 and Acts 26:25), not anything grammatically related to temperantia, even though the words are linked synonymously through definition.*

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexi...ophrosune.html

*

adj. mid-14c., "moderate in desires or actions, temperate, restrained," especially "abstaining from strong drink," also "calm, quiet, not overcome by emotion," from Old French sobre "decent; sober" (12c.), from Latin sobrius "not drunk, temperate, moderate, sensible," from a variant of se- "without" (see se- ) + ebrius "drunk," of unknown origin. Meaning "not drunk at the moment" is from late 14c.; also "appropriately solemn, serious, not giddy."

From: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sober

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Be that as it may, when it came time to translate egkrateia, starting with Wycliffe, they chose an Anglicized form of temperantia. But when they translated sophrosune, they used sobriety and soberness (In 1 Timothy 2:9 and 15 and Acts 26:25), not anything grammatically related to temperantia, even though the words are linked synonymously through definition.*

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexi...ophrosune.html

*

From: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sober

Should they have chosen a different word than sobriety or sober? If so, why?

Unfortunately, most today think sober means simply "not drunk or intoxicated" when in real English it means much more.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Yes, but Cicero lived in the first century BC. How he would have defined temperantia versus how it was defined when it entered into use in Middle English over 1,000 years later are two different things.

Yes, this is true, but etymology still holds its meaning. Gay, means something today it never meant in the 1940s. That's only 78 years. Yet, gay still has its true meaning.

But, for someone to say we are to leapfrog over Greek to use only 17th century English. Is just as bad as those of the Ecclesiological Roman Empire demanding Latin be used instead of Greek. When Desiderius Erasmus created his interlinear Latin Greek. He wanted to polish the Latin New Testament up, and therefore some believe (yet it never stuck) Erasmus was performing a heresy. The KJV Onlyists are just like those who came before them Greek Onlyists , Hebrew Onlyists, and Latin Onlysists. In the words of Brother Michael Blume, "God is able to preserve His Word" isn't God able? Yes, there are some real lame translations. But how many different language has the Bible been translated into? 670 languages? Did they use the KJV, NIV? Westcott and Hort? TR? The New Testament has been translated into 1521 languages? Do they check these NTs with the KJV, or any other English translation? Can of worms the KJV Onlyist position is once you venture outside of English speaking America.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Can of worms the KJV Onlyist position is once you venture outside of English speaking America.

Naah. red herring.

Many superb Reformation Bible editions in dozens of languages. A person should always use the purest and anointed Bible they can read.

What worms do you see?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Naah. red herring.

Many superb Reformation Bible editions in dozens of languages. A person should always use the purest and anointed Bible they can read.

What worms do you see?

Steven, so you are saying that foreign language Bibles are translated from the KJV? Or the translators check the KJV for accuracy?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to Cicero, temperantia ("temperance") was one of four definitions of the Greek term sophrosune. Temperantia did not mean "control", that was moderatio (one of the other definitions of sophrosune). Temperantia is related to temperare, a verb meaning "to mix correctly or in proper proportion". So the original idea of "temperance" would have been a proper, appropriate, and correct mixture of things (ie "properly balanced") whereby one element does not inappropriately overbear or dominate one or more others. A promiscuous fornicator might be considered "intemperate" because their carnal appetite and pleasure seeking was "improperly balanced", that is, they were unbalanced and dominated by something that should not dominate.

Interestingly, temperate and temperance seem connected to temper (both the verb and the noun) and temperature. To temper steel is to heat treat it in order to strengthen it. Thus, to temper means to apply heat, and a person's temper is their temperament (also, later usage of temper as meaning the heat of their anger). When tempering steel one heats it up (applies heat) then quenches it (applies cold). The alloy must be in proper proportions and the tempering process must be likewise properly proportioned between heating and cooling. Too much of one or the other makes the steel untempered (intemperate), not properly proportioned, and not suitable for use. Particularly military use in swords, spears, and armour.

Tempering of steel may be seen as a metallurgical analogy to purification (both of gold or silver, and metaphorically of the person). Purification and purging are words denoting the application of fire (pur, pyre, pyro, fire, etc) to remove unwanted pullutants. There is thus a connection between temperance and purity, both involve heat/fire, both involve properly proportioned elements or constituent parts, and both have moral connotations originally derived from military usages.

Language is fascinating.

Awesome

[Esaias]

Besides, temperance has far more nuance and richness in meaning than mere "self control". Egkrateis comes from en (in or on) and krateis (rule, mastery, power, possession, ownership). Thus, mastery, possession, ownership over something, or being "in mastery" of something, etc.

I found something interesting:

γκράτεια 1

I.mastery over a person or thing, ἐγκρ. ἑαυτοῦ self- control, Plat.
II.absol. self-control, Lat. continentia, Xen.
from ἐγκρα^τής
1 ἐγκράτεια, ἡ,

Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.

This indicates that egkrateia does not mean SELF control in and of itself unless the reflexive pronoun auto/s etc is in play. Over time, perhaps, the pronoun was dropped and was simply understood?

Also, I noticed L-S defined it with continentia, not temperantia... interesting.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Besides, temperance has far more nuance and richness in meaning than mere "self control". Egkrateis comes from en (in or on) and krateis (rule, mastery, power, possession, ownership). Thus, mastery, possession, ownership over something, or being "in mastery" of something, etc.

I found something interesting:

γκράτεια 1

I.mastery over a person or thing, ἐγκρ. ἑαυτοῦ self- control, Plat.
II.absol. self-control, Lat. continentia, Xen.
from ἐγκρα^τής
1 ἐγκράτεια, ἡ,

Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.

This indicates that egkrateia does not mean SELF control in and of itself unless the reflexive pronoun auto/s etc is in play. Over time, perhaps, the pronoun was dropped and was simply understood?

Also, I noticed L-S defined it with continentia, not temperantia... interesting.

They likely get that from the Vulgate, which has continentia in Galatians 5:23:

23. fides modestia continentia adversus huiusmodi non est lex...

This goes back to my reply to Steven:

The Greek word for "temperance" as found in Galatians 5:28 and 2 Peter 1:6 is

ἐγκράτεια

Or, transliterated, it's egkrateia.

Now, note the Greek word for "incontinent" as found in 2 Timothy 3:3:

ακρατεις or akrateis. Anyone can see that the two words are joined at the hip. In fact, they both share the same root, that is, κράτος or kratos.*

And what does "incontinent" mean? It means "lack of moderation or self-restraint or control", from the Latin incontinentem, meaning intemperate.

And where does "intemperate" come from? From the Latin temperantia, the very root of the word "temperance" that I showed several pages ago.

What's all this mean? It means we are dealing with closely related synonyms of each other, each effectively meaning about the same thing. Your 1828 definition of temperance does not preclude the idea of "self-control" at all. The very use of the word "incontinent" in 2 Timothy 3:3 for a Greek word of the same root and range proves this.

*This word kratos is where we get words like pantokrator, translated as "Almighty" in Revelation 4:8. It's the root of words like theocracy and autocracy. One important word is αὐτοκράτωρ which means "ruler of self", that is, someone who rules or controls themselves (as opposed to an external rule or control exerted by others).