Random Questions Thread

[shag]

(From a disp perspective-)

Regarding who exactly was/is Gods Chosen People Israel in and from the old-
Would dispensationalists believe that the entire 12 tribes were God‘s chosen and when they split into Northern and Southern kingdoms, all 12 tribes and a descendents of all 12 tribes remained God‘s chosen, and thereby to this day?
Or do they believe that only the two southern tribes remained as “God’s chosen people”?
Do they believe nowadays that all those belonging to the overseas Israel are Gods chosen, or just part of them, like those claiming to be of the bloodline of certain tribes? I’m assuming they believe that anyone Supposedly, descending from any of the 12 tribes are considered God’s chosen?

I’m just trying to find out how they see things, especially in Pentecostal dispensational theology regarding who is God’s chosen, and who is not as it relates to the nation state of Israel.

I’m not sure they can answer that…but I need to know exactly what they think if possible.

Thank you

[shag]

Regarding the promise(s) to Abraham:
Were the promises ever actually to his physical offspring(seed), or were they all actually only promises to/through the (spiritual)SEED (singular) of Christ?

[shag]

I typed this up for myself, as just a personal way of attempting to put on paper, my sort of “statement of faith” regarding this topic I’ve been attempting to work through. Is this accurate, or is it amiss on a couple things? I invite alignment of truth



I believe Israel is Gods chosen people.
-In short, this old covenant Israel as Gods chosen, became new covenant Israel Gods chosen, the church of Jesus Christ.

I believe this same Israel that I am speaking of, is Gods True Israel - (Rom. 9:6, Gal. 6:16)

And (Gods True) Israel is a chosen people, and a Holy Nation- 1 Peter 2:9

And this same Israel is the bride of the messiah, Jesus Christ- Rev. 21: 9, 12,14

And this chosen bride is made up of all peoples from all walks of life, whoever will drink of the water of life freely.
(John 4:14, Rev. 22:17)

And this chosen people Israel, are inheritors of all of the promises of Abraham, by way of the SEED (singular) of Jesus Christ.
Gal. 3:16, 26-29

And we (Gods true Israel) are also no more aliens and strangers of the Commonwealth of Israel, but Fellow Citizens with them.
Eph. 2:12-13, 19

Because within the Israel of God, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal. 3:28)

Because he has made us ONE and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility between peoples.
Eph. 2:12,14


And we along with our fellow citizens that we used to be alienated from before Christ, along with the apostles and Jesus, are built up as a holy temple unto the Lord.
Eph. 2:20-21

And any temple EVER built by man, will NEVER, EVER EVER take away sins, no matter where it is built, or who it is built by, or who is built for,
because Jesus Christ was the final once and for all acceptable sin atonement sacrifice.
Heb. 10:10-11

And we see a picture of the true and final temple, called the New Jerusalem, and heavenly Jerusalem, in Rev. 21’s, “Come, I will show you the bride of Christ”.
However it is not a physical temple or physical city prepared as a bride. Jesus doesn’t marry physical cities made of brick and mortar, or gold, or gates of pearl. It is describing a church that is prepared as a bride, because He said, “Come, I will show you the bride.
Rev. 21:2,9
Hebrews 12:18-24
Gal. 4:22-26
Matt. 5:14


On the 12 gates of the city (which is symbolic of His bride), were also inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. This is because we have become ONE body, fellow citizens, by way of engrafting into the Olive Tree, which represents Israel Gods chosen in the old covenant.
Rev. 21:12
Rom. 11:17
Eph. 2:12,14
Rom. 2:28-29
Deut. 10:16
Jer. 4:4
Col. 2:12

We (the born again Spiritually heart Circumcised) are Gods Israel in His new Covenant.
We are His Chosen bride. There is not and will not be another bride. There is not and will not be another new covenant between God and anyone other than this chosen bride. This chosen bride inherited all the promises to Abraham’s old covenant Israel.

Those practicing Judaism today are NOT in old covenant (Heb. 10 obsolete), nor are they in a new and better covenant with God, because the new covenant involves spiritual circumcision of the heart, towards Jesus Christ-Phil.3:3

When they or anyone is born again, they become in covenant (new & better) with God, and become a part of His chosen people and nation.
1 Peter 2:9

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Regarding the promise(s) to Abraham:
Were the promises ever actually to his physical offspring(seed), or were they all actually only promises to/through the (spiritual)SEED (singular) of Christ?

Romans 9:1-5 KJV
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The promises to Abraham pertain to Israelites (the offspring of Abraham), but are only fully realised in Christ. The promises do not come to full fruition except in Christ, Who is the archetypal Seed of Abraham. The promises cannot come into their full effect apart from Christ, if for no other reason than that Israel is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ (that is, Israel is predetermined by God to enter the new covenant under Messiah, as the mechanism by which the promises to Israel get fulfilled).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

(From a disp perspective-)

Regarding who exactly was/is Gods Chosen People Israel in and from the old-
Would dispensationalists believe that the entire 12 tribes were God‘s chosen and when they split into Northern and Southern kingdoms, all 12 tribes and a descendents of all 12 tribes remained God‘s chosen, and thereby to this day?
Or do they believe that only the two southern tribes remained as “God’s chosen people”?
Do they believe nowadays that all those belonging to the overseas Israel are Gods chosen, or just part of them, like those claiming to be of the bloodline of certain tribes? I’m assuming they believe that anyone Supposedly, descending from any of the 12 tribes are considered God’s chosen?

I’m just trying to find out how they see things, especially in Pentecostal dispensational theology regarding who is God’s chosen, and who is not as it relates to the nation state of Israel.

I’m not sure they can answer that…but I need to know exactly what they think if possible.

Thank you

What I have found is most dispensationalists simply have not thought through their claimed belief system very much. So they tend to be unable to address these types of questions. If they do, they often run into contradictions with their belief system, or else they discover they really aren't actual dispensationalists.

They also are still stuck on the idea that the modern "nation state of Israel" is somehow "those people of God in the Bible we read about in Sunday school". But not being familiar with the actual history of "those people", nor the history of the current "nation state of Israel" and its population, they can't figure out what's actually going on. So their answers may be consistent with their belief system, but they won't be consistent with reality.

[shag]

Does everyone agree that these two passages are speaking of the return in judgment in AD 70?


Luke 9
26If anyone is ashamed of me and my message, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in his glory and in the glory of the Father and the holy angels.27I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God.”


Matt:28
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


Mark 8-9
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
9:1 Jesus went on to say, “I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!”

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Does everyone agree that these two passages are speaking of the return in judgment in AD 70?


Luke 9
26If anyone is ashamed of me and my message, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in his glory and in the glory of the Father and the holy angels.27I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God.”


Matt:28
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


Mark 8-9
38If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
9:1 Jesus went on to say, “I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!”

I would say the first verse of each passage is referencing primarily the Judgement Day in which all will be judged. The second verse of each passage is referencing primarily the Transfiguration Vision that would happen shortly after He said those words, and more generally to the fact that "seeing the Kingdom come/Son of Man coming in His Kingdom" is a reference to the Resurrection and subsequent events proving Jesus is the Son of Man spoken of in Daniel 7, as Jesus told the priests when He was being examined by them that from that point on they would be seeing Him coming in the clouds with great glory etc.

[Amanah]

Timeline for Matthew 24 using a preterist/historicist understanding and avoiding futuristic misconceptions.

Section 1: Destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)

- Verses 1-3: Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple
- Verses 4-14: Signs leading up to the destruction:
- False prophets and messiahs (4-5)
- Wars and rumors of wars (6-7)
- Famines, earthquakes, and pestilences (7-8)
- Persecution of Christians (9-10)
- Gospel preached to all nations (14)
- Verses 15-22: The abomination of desolation (Roman destruction of Jerusalem)
- Verses 23-28: Warning against false prophets and messiahs
- Verses 29-31: Cosmic disturbances and the sign of the Son of Man (Jesus' victory and exaltation)
- Verse 32-35: The parable of the fig tree (AD 70-Israel's destruction )

Section 2: Second Coming

- Verses 36-44: Unknown day and hour of Jesus' return
- Verses 45-51: Faithfulness and watchfulness required

Note:
- The events in Section 1 conclude in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.
- Section 2 refers to the Second Coming of Jesus, which has not yet occurred.

This timeline highlights the two distinct sections of Matthew 24, separating the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem from the Second Coming of Jesus.

~Esaias

[Amanah]

I'm thinking all these passages are references to the destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' reign on the earth. (Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven)

Verses Referencing the Son of Man Coming in the Clouds

*New Testament References*

1. *Matthew 24:30*: "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."
2. *Matthew 26:64*: "Jesus said to him, 'You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"
3. *Mark 13:26*: "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory."
4. *Mark 14:62*: "And Jesus said, 'I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.'"
5. *Luke 21:27*: "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

*Old Testament*

1. *Daniel 7:13-14*: "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."

[shag]

Thank you.
What do you feel like the latter part of this passage means in reference to the “siege of Jerusalem judgment”?


Matt. 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.