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10-11-2019, 02:39 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
It is an established fact that Ewart was the ringleader of the Oneness faction of the Assembles Of God where the doctrine of Oneness Pentecostalism began in our time . He began preaching the full message, Oneness and Acts 2:38 in 1914.
If you can produce DOCUMENTATION of anyone preaching this combination together from the time of the early Church before then produce it. I would be happy to see it.
I dont follow man but I do acknowledge when a man teaches truth.
I dont doubt that there have been groups teaching it here and there over the centuries but I have never seen it DOCUMENTED. Yes men taught Oneness. Others taught baptism in Jesus name. Others taught tongues as the evidence.
I know of none who taught these things as a new birth package.
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Dude. Please. Read this carefully:
I HAVE POSTED DOCUMENTATION FROM THE EARLY 1900S AND EVEN EARLIER THAT THERE WERE PENTECOSTALS BAPTISING IN JESUS' NAME BELIEVING IN THE NEW BIRTH OF WATER AND SPIRIT AND BELIEVING WHAT WE NOW GENERALLY CALL "ONENESS" LONG BEFORE ARROYO SECO, THE AOG, EVEN BEFORE AZUSA STREET.
BUT I REFUSE TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK FOR YOU. Use the search function.
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10-11-2019, 04:43 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Dude. Please. Read this carefully:
I HAVE POSTED DOCUMENTATION FROM THE EARLY 1900S AND EVEN EARLIER THAT THERE WERE PENTECOSTALS BAPTISING IN JESUS' NAME BELIEVING IN THE NEW BIRTH OF WATER AND SPIRIT AND BELIEVING WHAT WE NOW GENERALLY CALL "ONENESS" LONG BEFORE ARROYO SECO, THE AOG, EVEN BEFORE AZUSA STREET.
BUT I REFUSE TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK FOR YOU. Use the search function.
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There were Oneness believers. There were those who baptized in Jesus name. There were those who spoke in tongues tho Im not aware of any historical groups that taught it was THE initial evidence.
I have not seen DOCUMENTATION on any particular group that taught all these things in package form as we do today.
I remember seeing some things you posted about groups that believed part of these things but NONE that believed them all together. I would really like to see if you have DOCUMENTATION.
Its not that I dont WANT it to be true. I am a Oneness Pentecostal myself and I could use it in my teaching.
When I say Ewart was the founder of the modern Oneness movement I dont infer he invented the doctrine or was even the one to teach it. I mean that he was considered at least early on as the "leader".
In his autobiography put out by the Pentecostal Publishing House, The Phenomenon Of Pentecost pg 67.
Quote:
In relating these events I am trying to assume the viewpoint of an unbiased historian. However since it is widely known that I was THE RINGLEADER OF THE ONENESS CROWD and that I consider the revelation of the Oneness of God to be fundamental to participation in the "faith once delivered to the saints" my job is difficult and most unenviable.
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So if the UPC had any objection of him calling himself the leader of the Oneness movement from its beginning maybe they would have edited it.
Anyway my point in using him in this discussion is it seems he believed the Pre existing Logos was more than a mere "thought" or "plan" in the mind of God. Same as some of us today.
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10-11-2019, 02:13 PM
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Registered Member
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Anyone claiming Frank Ewart is the "founder of modern Oneness Pentecostalism" isn't qualified to discuss the subject, in my opinion. If Ewart was the founder then we're all in a Johnny come lately heretical cult.
Quote:
No wonder you get "trounced" by trins, you've surrendered before a shot ever gets fired.
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I have NEVER said I get "trounced" by the Trins. I am attacked relentlessy and have been many times. I have never given ground to the Trins. They attempt to make me look foolish on the Greek, which would not be hard to to since I dont know it.
I dont try to argue Greek with them except if it something I have already confirmed.
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10-11-2019, 02:35 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,793
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
I have NEVER said I get "trounced" by the Trins. I am attacked relentlessy and have been many times. I have never given ground to the Trins. They attempt to make me look foolish on the Greek, which would not be hard to to since I dont know it.
I dont try to argue Greek with them except if it something I have already confirmed.
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I think you missed my point.
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10-11-2019, 03:10 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Getting back to the subject at hand.
This is like the third Logos thread and like the previous ones it lacks any Scriptural documentation showing the Word was created, begotten, or made.
Contra that claim, I assert the following:
God is uncreated, not made, not begotten.
The Word was God.
Therefore, the Word was uncreated, not made, not begotten.
Your serve.
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10-11-2019, 05:04 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Getting back to the subject at hand.
This is like the third Logos thread and like the previous ones it lacks any Scriptural documentation showing the Word was created, begotten, or made.
Contra that claim, I assert the following:
God is uncreated, not made, not begotten.
The Word was God.
Therefore, the Word was uncreated, not made, not begotten.
Your serve.
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Was God the Logos? If God was the Logos that means God was a thought in his own mind according to the majority of Oneness teachers today. Do we define God as a thought in his own mind?
True God is uncreated not made or begotten.
However you must not understand that God can exist in more than one mode of being simultaneously.
God as omnipresent eternal Spirit had no beginning. But in the beginning of creation he made himself a form. This form was from himself to represent himself to creation.
In one mode of being he was invisible, in another he was visible.
The Logos (form) was with God. And the Logos was God. The image was himself.....in visible form. The Logos was everything the eternal Spirit was EXCEPT in a reduced image to fit inside creation and to sit on a throne and talk with angels and men.
Think of a company that has a "logo". It is a design of some kind the company creates. They want the potential customer base to think of their company when they see the logo.
I heard years ago "logo" is derived from "Logos".
It works the same way.
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10-11-2019, 05:26 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,431
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Was God the Logos? If God was the Logos that means God was a thought in his own mind according to the majority of Oneness teachers today. Do we define God as a thought in his own mind?
True God is uncreated not made or begotten.
However you must not understand that God can exist in more than one mode of being simultaneously.
God as omnipresent eternal Spirit had no beginning. But in the beginning of creation he made himself a form. This form was from himself to represent himself to creation.
In one mode of being he was invisible, in another he was visible.
The Logos (form) was with God. And the Logos was God. The image was himself.....in visible form. The Logos was everything the eternal Spirit was EXCEPT in a reduced image to fit inside creation and to sit on a throne and talk with angels and men.
Think of a company that has a "logo". It is a design of some kind the company creates. They want the potential customer base to think of their company when they see the logo.
I heard years ago "logo" is derived from "Logos".
It works the same way.
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So, there is God, and then there is His holy space suit the logos?
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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10-11-2019, 08:36 PM
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Registered Member
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
So, there is God, and then there is His holy space suit the logos?
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There was God and his image. The image in which he made angels and men. The image- form was God himself in visible manifestation.
The form was made flesh. Jesus of Nazarath.
God manifest in the flesh.
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10-11-2019, 08:51 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,431
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
There was God and his image.
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OK, you have two, God and His space suit.
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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10-11-2019, 05:32 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,793
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Was God the Logos? If God was the Logos that means God was a thought in his own mind according to the majority of Oneness teachers today. Do we define God as a thought in his own mind?
True God is uncreated not made or begotten.
However you must not understand that God can exist in more than one mode of being simultaneously.
God as omnipresent eternal Spirit had no beginning. But in the beginning of creation he made himself a form. This form was from himself to represent himself to creation.
In one mode of being he was invisible, in another he was visible.
The Logos (form) was with God. And the Logos was God. The image was himself.....in visible form. The Logos was everything the eternal Spirit was EXCEPT in a reduced image to fit inside creation and to sit on a throne and talk with angels and men.
Think of a company that has a "logo". It is a design of some kind the company creates. They want the potential customer base to think of their company when they see the logo.
I heard years ago "logo" is derived from "Logos".
It works the same way.
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I must not understand modes of Divine being? Who are you kidding?
The Word was God. Therefore the Word was uncreated, not made, not begotten.
You however, have "The Word was God, the Word was created etc".
The Logos is NOT merely "the form". This is where you do err. You are saying the Logos is a suit God made for Himself. But then the Logos would NOT be God, it would be a created vehicle for God. Scripture teaches otherwise. The Logos WAS GOD and then became a Man. When Jacob wrestled with the angel the Logos wasn't just the skin he touched, it was THE PERSON OR BEING he was wrestling with, who appeared as a man.
You are confusing the self-revelatory Person of God with the mere accidentals of the physical substance He used to express Himself.
God is Spirit, with a particular FORM, in and of Himself. That FORM is the Divine Mind, Idea, Consciousness, or LOGOS, it is God expressing Himself, the PERSON(ality) of God. That expression is as eternal and uncreated as God Himself, because THAT IS GOD. And that Word became flesh. Not "hopped into a flesh suit" but became a genuine human being, JESUS the Christ, the Son of God.
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