Ok, so by the same logic, I win the local AG (or Baptist or Lutheran) Pastor to God and he convinces his ENTIRE congregation to be baptized in Jesus Name. Their eyes are opened and they allow me to be the new Pastor-
Am I then a thief?
Or do I leave them alone and start a street meeting with four and let all that good fruit die on the vine with no new nourishment?
Again, your logic is flat wrong. If a man started a church and then fell in a moral sin, would the man coming behind him to bring that church back to the place of proper fellowship with God also be a thief?
I do see what you are saying, but it is comparing apples to oranges.
"Oneness vs Trinity" is not the same as "ads on tv vs no ads on tv"
Saul was doing what he thought was right spiritually when God changed His mind and He took on a new name. It wasn't because the others in the Sanhedron were going to liberal!
I can't make a comment on the moral sin with what was presented. What happened with the church.
Well thanks for the clarification Ferd, but it does seem to be the way some are feeling judging from some of the attitudes and the posts and comments made on this thread and others.
You are right. there is some of that.
There has also been enough said and done by those leaving to lend tender to the fire.
I have said and a lot of others have said, there has been plenty of wrong to go around.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Terms like "crybaby preachers" and statements like "I wanna vomit" tend to give that impression.
Amos, lets place those comment in context.
they were not said about the broad group of men who are leaving. Those comments were said to one poster with a long standing history who was saying some things that illicted the retort.
As always context is key.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I don't believe that it is the UPCI will be better off without certain men as much as it is that they will be better off without certain attitudes and hinderances to progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Miller
TV ads and TV ministering.
Brother Miller, this is so not about TV.
The well has been poisoned. If one side says red, the other feels compelled to say blue. Mistrust seems to rule the day. And it is vastly more ingrained than a simple vote on TV.
TV was just the battle that was picked. This deal has been boiling for a long time. I could go back in time and list for you a half-dozen clashes that have occurred over the last 20 years that have led to this. It is about direction of the UPCI and sides were chosen and so the contest began. In the end, it appears for now, the Moderates have carried the day. Who knows what tomorrow holds?
Things don’t happen in a vacuum. And has already been said, the issue often isn’t the issue.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Very well said. This "we're better off without them" attitude is not new and is growing more intense by the minute.
I don't understand it, but have been singing this song since GC and before...
Seriously...if all 'they' can do is complain, accuse, separate (which they were already doing, which is already disunity and division) and crying over spilled milk and not rather moving forward, then yes maybe we ARE better off without them. I think we'd all love to remain united despite our differences but clearly that is not going to happen with some.
In my area "they" were already separated. They were already talking about that Pastor across down and that church over there with derision. They were already having their own campmeetings, youth conventions and youth camps and fellowship meetings and NOT going to the official ones of the org. They were already forbidding their sheep from going.
I can go to their meetings. I can fellowship them. But it's becoming more and more that the converse is not true.
In fact some usually just say we are all backsliders because of this one issue
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I want to dedicate that famous old song from Hee Haw to those wallowing in despair and gloom and doom about the future of the UPC.
"Gloom, depair and agony on me. Deep dark depression, excessive misery. If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all. Doom, despair and agony on me!"
I was thinking on the drive home from work........
How is the UPC better off without Crawford Coon?
How is the UPC better off without Johnny and Ken Godair?
How is the UPC better off without many of the fine, highly respected, looked up to and successful men of God who may be leaving?
How can this be?
I have the answer for you. It is simply one word. "UNITY". Some of these guys will be better off outside of the UPC and the UPC will be better off without them. Regardless of their stature.
To ignore the fact that there is a fundamental divsion between conservatives and mods / libs that has finally come to a head would be to ignore reality.
The last few years there has not even been a facade of unity. The conservatives have been more and more outspoken in their opposition to video (not TV, just video period), music, lights, fog, synchornized motions, etc, etc.
At the same time many mods and libs have started to believe that some of the extreme legalism was just that - extreme legalism - and are moderating.
Those two trends are incompatible. That is reality.
The cons meeting in Tulsa have some mature seasoned men at the helm and will do just fine in their new org. They will enjoy unity of purpose.
The UPCers left are led by mature seasoned men who will do just fine with those that are left. They will enjoy unity of purpose and I am guessing growth that will more than make up for those who left over this disagreement.
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