The Remission is Different from Forgiveness Myth

[Ev. Duane Williams]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Sir ... if l handed you a Spanish bible would you read it?

I can't teach your remission is different from forgiveness doctrine using a Spanish bible ... which I do use ... EVEN IF I TRIED TO ....

as for your attempt to dismiss the ability of thousands of bible students who have studied basic Greek terms and the unanimous consensus of theologians ... both expert and amateur ... including David Bernard and Daniel Segraves .... on a basic theological concept/word and it's meaning ...

shows your contempt and/or negligence for interpreting and rightly dividing the Word without bias ... and ultimately TRUTH, IMO.

Simply takes a Greek/English dictionary for this simple exercise, Elder ... not years of linguistic study.

I wonder if I can throw out this desperate barb next time you try to speak authoritatively about the Greek in regards to such words as kouros?

Dan,

In many places throughout the Bible both Hebrew and Greek words have more than one meaning which would be nonsensical if the same English word was used for each. For example, the word "know" in KJV has two obviously different meanings. When Adam "knew" Eve, it was obviously different from "knowing" the Truth, no? When God "repented of the evil" He was about to do, you surely don't think He was about to engage in Satan's type of evil, do you? If I say the word "jam", am I talking about jelly, improvised music, paper stuck in a copier, or someone in a difficult situation?

Having said that, I haven't studied this issue out completely, so I must go into Berean mode on this one, but I'll get back to you.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Sir ... if l handed you a Spanish bible would you read it?

I can't teach your remission is different from forgiveness doctrine using a Spanish bible ... which I do use ... EVEN IF I TRIED TO ....

as for your attempt to dismiss the ability of thousands of bible students who have studied basic Greek terms and the unanimous consensus of theologians ... both expert and amateur ... including David Bernard and Daniel Segraves .... on a basic theological concept/word and it's meaning ...

shows your contempt and/or negligence for interpreting and rightly dividing the Word without bias ... and ultimately TRUTH, IMO.

Simply takes a Greek/English dictionary for this simple exercise, Elder ... not years of linguistic study.

I wonder if I can throw out this desperate barb next time you try to speak authoritatively about the Greek in regards to such words as kouros?

Just as I thought all of this the Greek and Hebrew says thus and thus and speak as though they are an authority and the man couldn't order lamb in a Greek resturant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What does the Spanish Bible have to do with anything????

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Next you'll be spouting that Dan can't could'nt order a hot dog in hebrew.

That is one of the lameest quotes you guys throw about.

We are not ordering hot dogs here.

We are looking at the actual definintions of greek and hebrew words as to what they actually meant to the hearers they were penned to.

Without being able to read a lexicon people will be stumbling about forever thinking some little girl is going to hell for wearing pajamas.

good grief...how long will we defend ignorance.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Elder,
I could not read a Greek New Testament.
I do have a couple of interlinear Greek/English Bibles and can verify how the word aphesis or aphiemi are translated in the King James Bible.

APHESIS (Strong's word 859) and APHIEMI (Strong’s word 863) are used as follows in the Greek Scriptures and are usually translated as release, forgiveness, remission, pardon, let go, leave, suffer(permit), dismiss, send away discharge, cancel.

Here is how APHESIS is used in the KJV New Testament:

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the REMISSION of sins.
Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the REMISSION of sins.
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the
REMISSION of their sins,
Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the
baptism of repentance for the REMISSION of sins;
Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
brokenhearted, to preach DELIVERANCE to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to SET AT LIBERTY them that are bruised,
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and REMISSION of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive REMISSION of sins.
Ac 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that
through this man is preached unto you the FORGIVENESS of sins:
Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive
FORGIVENESS of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the
FORGIVENESS of sins:
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no REMISSION.
Heb 10:18 Now where REMISSION of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

to be continued:

[Sam]

continued from part one


Here is how APHIEMI is used in the KJV New Testament

Mt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, SUFFER it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he SUFFERED him.
Mt 4:11 Then the devil LEAVETH him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mt 4:20 And they straightway LEFT their nets, and followed him.
Mt 4:22 And they immediately LEFT the ship and their father, and followed him.
Mt 5:24 LEAVE there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mt 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, LET him HAVE thy cloke also.
Mt 6:12 And FORGIVE us our debts, as we FORGIVE our debtors.
Mt 6:14 For if ye FORGIVE men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you:
Mt 6:15 But if ye FORGIVE not men their trespasses, neither will your Father FORGIVE your trespasses.
Mt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, LET me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mt 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever LET her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and LET the dead bury their dead.
Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be FORGIVEN thee.
Mt 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to FORGIVE sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be FORGIVEN unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost SHALL not BE FORGIVEN unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be FORGIVEN him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it SHALL not BE FORGIVEN him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mt 13:30 LET both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mt 13:36 Then Jesus SEND the multitude AWAY, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mt 15:14 LET them ALONE: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not LEAVE the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I FORGIVE him? till seven times?
Mt 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and FORGAVE him the debt.
Mt 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I FORGAVE thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts FORGIVE not every one his brother their trespasses.
Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, SUFFER little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have FORSAKEN all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mt 19:29 And every one that hath FORSAKENhouses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mt 22:22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and LEFT him, and went their way.
Mt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, LEFT his wife unto his brother:
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither SUFFER ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have OMITTED the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to LEAVE the other UNDONE.
Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is LEFT unto you desolate.
Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be LEFT here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Mt 26:44 And he LEFT them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples FORSOOK him, and fled.
Mt 27:49 The rest said, LET BE, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, YIELDED UP the ghost.
Mr 1:18 And straightway they FORSOOK their nets, and followed him.
Mr 1:20 And straightway he called them: and they LEFT their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.
Mr 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever LEFT her, and she ministered unto them.
Mr 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and SUFFERED not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be FORGIVEN thee.
Mr 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can FORGIVE sins but God only?
Mr 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mr 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to FORGIVE sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be FORGIVEN unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be FORGIVEN them.
Mr 4:36 And when they had SENT AWAY the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mr 5:19 Howbeit Jesus SUFFERED him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mr 5:37 And he SUFFERED no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
Mr 7:8 For LAYING ASIDE the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mr 7:12 And ye SUFFER him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mr 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, LET the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
Mr 8:13 And he LEFT them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
Mr 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, SUFFER the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mr 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have LEFT all, and have followed thee.
Mr 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath LEFT house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
Mr 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they LET them GO.
Mr 11:16 And would not SUFFER that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mr 11:25 And when ye stand praying, FORGIVE, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may FORGIVE you your trespasses.
Mr 11:26 But if ye do not FORGIVE, neither will your Father which is in heaven FORGIVE your trespasses.
Mr 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they LEFT him, and went their way.
Mr 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man’s brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and LEAVE no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mr 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying LEFT no seed.
Mr 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither LEFT he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mr 12:22 And the seven had her, and LEFT no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mr 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be LEFT one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mr 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who LEFT his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mr 14:6 And Jesus said, LET her ALONE; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
Mr 14:50 And they all FORSOOK him, and fled.
Mr 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, LET ALONE; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mr 15:37 And Jesus CRIED with a loud voice, and GAVE UP the ghost.
Lu 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it LEFT her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
Lu 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they FORSOOK all, and followed him.

to be continued in part 3

[mfblume]

Remission and forgiveness are the same Greek word. They are interchangeable, and do not mean different things. If sins are remitted, they are forgiven.

G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

[Michael The Disciple]

Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

Acts 8:22 KJV Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:15 KJV And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But I still believe baptism is part of salvation. Just not for the reasons some give.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Acts 8:22 KJV Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:15 KJV And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But I still believe baptism is part of salvation. Just not for the reasons some give.

Hmmm,

This looks like a case tho where in both cases those involved were at least ones who had already believed and were baptized.

I am looking for the scripture if it exists that puts repentance as the point where a sinners sins are forgiven before water baptism. So far I have not seen it.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hmmm,

This looks like a case tho where in both cases those involved were at least ones who had already believed and were baptized.

I am looking for the scripture if it exists that puts repentance as the point where a sinners sins are forgiven before water baptism. So far I have not seen it.

Mike, try flipping the page in your bible. Next chapter.

Acts 3:19

19"

Therefore (A)repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that (B)times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Crystal clear from the Preacher who preached at Pentecost ...


Also read Adino's plethora of scripture dealing with scripture you say you can't find in this post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.

Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.

To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”

Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.


Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.