"resurrection"

[Parson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Maybe FP thinks Christ's body was in the situation where it was as with the sons of the prophets who told Elisha they were going to look for Elijah's body. They thought it was discarded upon some mountain, or something.

But that WOULD STILL require the body to die as IT WAS ALIVE when Christ ascended.



What did Christ die of the second time???????????????



Parson

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Well Blumes at it again.

What does that imply? We can all be nice to each other.

He quoted:

Originally Posted by STRONG'S LEXICON
RESURRECTION G386
ἀνάστασις -anastasis - an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): -translated in the KJV as raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

Bro Blume.

What about this do you disagree with?

or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):

Strongs backs up the FP mindset also.

That is not dealing with physical death but obviously a moral, thus a spiritual death.

What is to disagree here!

Who said I disagreed with anything Strong's said? My point is Strong is correct and refutes FP.

Did you see the word "FIGURATIVELY" in Strong's words? Are you saying Fp teaches a FIGURATIVE resurrection? A figurative resurrection is not actually a resurrection, but a moral issue used when speaking of the recovery of spiritual TRUTH, as in the Strong's example. That is a far cry from fp resurrection.

That is not what FP or yourself claims will occur at our deaths.

But please let's not overlook the details of my point. You glossed over them completely. WHAT DIED in FP teaching, that is also alive again, or is back? That is the part that resurrects. As I said, soul and Spirit of Jesus did not die and come back. His body did.

Somehow you are stuck, like the heretical dispensationalists, that everything is physical! Obviously the firstfruits of the resurrection have to be the new birth. Do you disagree?

When it comes to something dying and coming back, yes it is physical. After all, the physical body died, TJJJ. So I ask you again, what comes to life again, after having died?

TJJJ,

You overlooked all the details I mentioned, never responded to any of them, and then quote Strong's and claim it promotes fp's resurrection (but then again you would not even look at the Greek suffix, IKOS, issues). Your conclusion here must mean fp's resurrection is figurative, as though someone has left truth only to be recovered again to the truth from being in error, rather than actually dying physically and experiencing a NON-FIGURATIVE RESURRECTION. A figuratiive resurrection does not involve a physical death of the body, brother. Please try again, my Polish brother.

Even in figurative resurrection, what died was a person's grasp of the truth, which came back again, qualifying it as a FIGURATIVE resurrection.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Parson

But that WOULD STILL require the body to die as IT WAS ALIVE when Christ ascended.

Exactly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Parson

Why was it important that the body of Christ be raised BEFORE IT SEEN CORRUPTION????

If Christ was ONLY going to have a SPIRITUAL BODY--one that did not involve His former flesh---WHAT WOULD IT MATTER IF THE PHYSICAL BODY BEGAN TO DECAY??????????????

What was the deal about raising from the dead before corruption set in????

oh.....

Good one.

[Godsdrummer]

Around and around we go. We can get too technical in our arguement about this. We sound like the Saducee and the Pharisee. That would argue if there was or not a resurrection. It seems we are too busy disagreing then looking for where we agree.
I would quote Romans 14 but I will leave that for now.

What I would like to point out here is found in the scriture that we are going round and round.

Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Note we start as a natural body but we end with a spiritual body!! How simple is that??

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We will not have an earthly body in the after life. We shall have a heavenly body, whatever that may be.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Well of course flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God. Of course in this case it is not those who are left behind when we die that inherit the kingdom of God it is oneself we receive our inheritance when we die.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

It is a mystery!!! We don't know exactly what kind of a body we shall have in the resurection. Paul does tell us of a few things we do know for sure.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We shall be changed, this corruptible will become incorruptible. And our mortal body will become immortal. Finally there will be no more death after we are changed.

As I see it if the resurection happened at 70ad then when we die we immediatly are changed and go to our reward. If there is a second reserection and return of Christ to earth then when we die we sleep until that time, then the same thing happens we are change.

One final thought sorry so long winded, But if this physical body is recovered from the grave what happens to those that have been cremated etc. scripture tells us that this body when it dies goes back to the dust from where we were created and our spirit returns to God.

[Parson]

Hi Godsdrummer!

Sound like Sadduccees??????

But if this physical body is recovered from the grave what happens to those that have been cremated etc. scripture tells us that this body when it dies goes back to the dust from where we were created and our spirit returns to God.

This reminds me of a question posed to Jesus.....by Sadduccees no less.

Mar 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
Mar 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mar 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
Mar 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mar 12:22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mar 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

To which Christ answered--(and my answer to you)

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Do you think that God is so IMPOTENT in that He would be unable to resurrect any that have been cremated??

Have we found at last something that the ALMIGHTY cannot physically do???

Perhaps I have been laboring under a wrong impression about God. I thought that it was said of Him that ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD.


Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Should we edit the Bible to read

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God NEARLY all things are possible.

I don't thinks so.


First, I would ask you to DEFINE what you mean by SPIRITUAL BODY.

Is it a ghost----without physical qualities??? Nothing that can be touched???

Was Christ's body nothing more than a meatball with a spook/ghost in it???

Then the meatball died to allow the spook/ghost out so that it could be free???

Or do you mean by Spiritual Body--a Physical Body that has been CHANGED to become something MORE than it was?

This change was spoken of by Paul.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The Greek word for CHANGE is μετασχηματίζω--metaschēmatizō which means 1) to change the figure of, to transform

It is where we get the English word metamorphosis...

And from the same Greek root word--we get TRANSFIGURE--as when Christ was TRANSFIGURED before His disciples.

To be brief--THE SAME BODY IS TRANSFORMED into something greater.....NOT THE SAME BODY ABANDONED to allow something trapped inside.......... out.

Both sides agree we will have a Spiritual Body---

Where the problem is-- some think that we shall abandon our physical bodies and allow the SPOOK within--out. And we are nothing more than LIGHT--or COLORS or whatever.


It is more than just a difference of opinion. The entire strength of the gospel lies in the resurrection of Christ. The blessed hope that is ours is based on this resurrection.

It is the same hope of Job.....and it also answers your cremation problem.

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

The CEV puts it more plainly.

Job 19:26 My flesh may be destroyed, yet from this body I will see God.



If God can deal with skin worms--He can deal with anything.




Parson

[mfblume]

Godsdrummer,

My concern about resurrection is that the issue is listed amongs the six principles of the doctrine, which Hebrews 6 implies must be agreed upon.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

If it was an issue like how we actually baptize in tanks or rivers, that would be something else.

We can discuss this civilly, though and still be kind without mocking, laughing icons and giant, emboldened letters.

[Parson]

Hi Bro Blume!

We can discuss this civilly, though and still be kind without mocking, laughing icons and giant, emboldened letters.

I am certainly happy to see your efforts to maintain a scholarly and civil tone in your discussions. Such an attitude is the hallmark of a true Christian gentleman.

Please note to all that would read anything that I (Parson) would post is NEVER intended to come across as insulting or demeaning.

Those portions that I would highlight and enlarge are ONLY intended to bring attention to certain points that I wish to place emphasis upon--much in the same way that ALL CAPS in the typing. You will remember that some consider typing in all capital letters to signify shouting.

To further the discussion on resurrection--please post your thoughts on a particular passage that I am sure that AFPs would use to make their case of a DIFFERENT body theory at the resurrection.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Blessings


Parson

[Parson]

Hi Bro Blume

I am bumping this only to allow you an opportunity to share your thoughts on the following resurrection passage.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I thought since this is your thread--you should have the first go at it.





Parson

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Godsdrummer,

My concern about resurrection is that the issue is listed amongs the six principles of the doctrine, which Hebrews 6 implies must be agreed upon.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

If it was an issue like how we actually baptize in tanks or rivers, that would be something else.

We can discuss this civilly, though and still be kind without mocking, laughing icons and giant, emboldened letters.

Ah come Mike let the boys have their fun sometimes when you give kids toys to play with their going to play. LOL (all the icons bold letters etc.)

But In answer to your statement of the resurrection I would think as long as we beleive there is one. As I quoted from Paul and maybe I was missunderstanding what Paul is saying when he refers to (I show you a mystery) but it seen he is speaking of the resurrection there. I have my beleif that we will have a spiritual body like Christ had when he was resurrected. And I feel we have enough scripture to back it but, do we realy know. I don't put alot of strength behind near death experiances but they do tend to be consistant in their testimony, that we can't completly say they are not true. And they testify to the fact that they have a body.

In respons to Parsons

I only threw in the thing about cremation just to get a respons. I am going to be cremated when I die. Alot cheaper for my family. LOL My parents have donated their remains to science and what is left will be cremated and then sent to us kids and all the cost will be covered what a deal.