What if our Appeal is Appalling?

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Are we appalling to more than we are appealing to?

I think you ask some very valid questions, but for time's sake, I will briefly respond to one that stood out. I assume by "we" you intend to reference organized religion within the Apostolic movement. If that is the case, then I would say this. The essence of Christianity primarily involves individuals and their relationship to God first, and then how they relate to others. Organized religion attempts to contextualize this, but does so at a cost. The interpretation, style, and preferences of a few men ultimately end up defining a denomination's culture, which will never reflect universal values, or more specifically, values "appealing" to everyone (even those of like precious faith).

That is why Jesus Christ became the standard for all to see. He was saying, "See, here I am, this is what God would do in the flesh!" We'll never get it "just right" as long as we live in this Terra Firma, but focusing on our relationship with Him is the best we can hope for. If people find Jesus Christ unappealing, then that is one thing, and they will regard His Body no differently. If they find your religion appalling, that is altogether different. Religions are identifiers based on culture and the knowledge of it's leaders. Relationship with God does not equal a membership in religion. Perhaps it could be that some people find organized religion appalling, and all of it's man made tendencies?

[pelathais]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
Are we appalling to more than we are appealing to?

Yeah. Don't get me started.

Appalling... and we tend to go out of our way to perpetuate that perception.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I am seeing the business of doing "church" becoming less influential and personal relationship and practical application soaring...The primary goal does not seem to be get people to come to church anymore.

Oops! I accidently repeated your post here...well, maybe not accidently.

You are perfectly correct, because there exists no perfect correlation between the bolded portions.

[CAD/JPY]

Hoovie,

I was a youth leader one summer, and I remember my friend and I planning this fantastic outreach idea. We had the play down, and how we would act it all out. People showed up, and it was okay... I mean, we certainly didn't lose the audience, and it was well attended.

But....

Afterwords, an older preacher that I highly respect came up and said words to this effect. "That was good, but remember that there is nothing that can replace the annointing of God. If it was me, I would have gone with annointed preaching"

Without a doubt, I believe if a church seeks truly after the presence of God, they will find it. I'm talking "critical thinking" to find His presence. "God where are you going?" "God is this acceptable?" "God, what do YOU want to happen here?" If the leadership in a church will seek for the deep move of God, that beautiful presence of the Lord each and every service, well, I truly believe they will find it!

I know of churches where you can walk into the sanctuary and immediately feel the presence of God.... when church isn't happening! The sanctuary is empty.
I have seen people who don't even speak the language, attend a church service and all they can describe is the LOVE that they feel. The church I attend now, we repeatedly hear from visitors that they feel something different about this church. I believe it is the presence of God, because we go into every service looking for it, trying to find it, asking God to show up.

To me, the appeal should be outstanding moves of God. The question is this.... ask yourself while everything is "happening" in your service... (the loud, fast songs; the super emotion; the way people are prayed for; the altar call, "sigh" and yes, the offering too; and the preaching)

IS THIS REALLY A MOVE OF GOD??

And when you find that answer, you want to go where HE is going. Churches that critically seek after that, can't help but have appeal! Sure, they will have different styles... but the same SPIRIT! And people that come, will be drawn to that SPIRIT.

People will stay because there are few churches that continually have those deep moves of God's Spirit. I'm talking original moves of God...

Blessings.

[Hoovie]

Thank you all for the responses so far. This will give me some things to think about today.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Thank you all for the responses so far. This will give me some things to think about today.

If it's ok, I'd like to repeat the quote from Erwin McManus and follow it up with an observation:

"What is really needed in the church today is not so much a change in music, although that may need to change.....not so much a change in the decor, although that may need to change. It's not so much a change in how we look, and we may very well need to change how we look.

But the real change that's needed within the church is a change from the posture of spiritual arrogance to one of spiritual humility.....a change from "The church is not here for us, the church is here for the world."

I believe the Pentecostal "style" drives people away. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be intentionally offensive, but it does, in my opinion. I've watched it over and over and over....times ten. So the obvious answer seems to be, to tone it down.

A lot of churches have stripped away the churchy "look" and the "sound." I think when the heart changes it almost always causes an adjustment in style so it's easy to assume that a church that's dressed up in jeans and playing screaming guitars, must have had a heart change. But when people change their style without a heart change it just ends up being the same ole, same ole....legalism dressed up in jeans and playing a rock guitar.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by revrandy

We have grown in the last year probably by 20%...the Church is Rockin' Folks are being won to the Lord...Preaching is Anointed..Folks are looking for Folks that are commited to serving God...It's working for us...

you mean, It's working for you

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Michlow

you mean, It's working for you

That's great!!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by notofworks

If it's ok, I'd like to repeat the quote from Erwin McManus and follow it up with an observation:

"What is really needed in the church today is not so much a change in music, although that may need to change.....not so much a change in the decor, although that may need to change. It's not so much a change in how we look, and we may very well need to change how we look.

But the real change that's needed within the church is a change from the posture of spiritual arrogance to one of spiritual humility.....a change from "The church is not here for us, the church is here for the world."

I believe the Pentecostal "style" drives people away. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be intentionally offensive, but it does, in my opinion. I've watched it over and over and over....times ten. So the obvious answer seems to be, to tone it down.

A lot of churches have stripped away the churchy "look" and the "sound." I think when the heart changes it almost always causes an adjustment in style so it's easy to assume that a church that's dressed up in jeans and playing screaming guitars, must have had a heart change. But when people change their style without a heart change it just ends up being the same ole, same ole....legalism dressed up in jeans and playing a rock guitar.

OK. I am with you on that if by "Pentecostal Style" you mean hoedown church where isle runnings and helicopter shockamoo is encouraged or regularly indulged.

Now NOW, I would venture to say jeans and screaming guitars on the platform turn off at least as many folks as the fore stated "Pentecostal Style". I am going to guess most of the general public would be uncomfortable with either one.

I am not totally judging either one... and there are many other styles we could talk about. I am really just trying to determine if our responsibility is to be as neutral as possible when it comes to style. I sense some think whacked behavior gets a pass if they can say "God inspired this" in the midst of it.

Side note: Your "same ole, same ole" statement assumes those who have not "stripped away the churchy "look" and the "sound", are legalistic and need a heart change.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

OK. I am with you on that if by "Pentecostal Style" you mean hoedown church where isle runnings and helicopter shockamoo is encouraged or regularly indulged.

Now NOW, I would venture to say jeans and screaming guitars on the platform turn off at least as many folks as the fore stated "Pentecostal Style". I am going to guess most of the general public would be uncomfortable with either one.

I am not totally judging either one... and there are many other styles we could talk about. I am really just trying to determine if our responsibility is to be as neutral as possible when it comes to style. I sense some think whacked behavior gets a pass if they can say "God inspired this" in the midst of it.

Side note: Your "same ole, same ole" statement assumes those who have not "stripped away the churchy "look" and the "sound", are legalistic and need a heart change.

Yes, that's what I meant by "Pentecostal Style".

"Screamin' guitars" was an exaggeration. It was an extreme way of saying "guitar-driven" music. As far as jeans go, I've never met a non-Christian who was turned off by casual dress. Personally, I wear jeans almost every Sunday. They're my favorite and they're comfortable and it's never been a problem for non-Christians. Christians? I better not comment!

No, I did not mean that anyone who retains a church look and sound is legalistic. I can see how I gave that impression. Robert Schuller is a prime example of this. The Crystal Cathedral is VERY traditional. Robes, pipe organ, choirs holding sheet music, etc. But they're anything BUT tradition, philosophically. That are not at all the same ole same ole.

My point was, that if people think they can do rock n' roll and wear jeans, and automatically remedy the things that have driven away non-Christians, they're wrong. A surface change isn't enough. It must be a heart change.