The State of the UPC

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Hoovie, even if hundreds of new ministers were coming in that says nothing of retention rates. If they have 100 in every year and 99 of those leave after 5 years then they only have a net of 1 new minister per year.

Someone recently posted the stats from the UPC magazine, and more had left than had signed up. There wasn't a gain, there was a loss.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by CC1

I am really surprised at the dismal demographics regarding the percentage of licensed ministers under the age of 35 (reported to be 4% if correct). I knew it would not be good but was shocked at how bad it is.

I think one of the weaknesses of many Oneness Pentecostal churches, not just UPC ones but exUPC ones as well, is a lack of mentoring young men to become preachers.

My anecdotal observation is that;

1. It appears many pastors do not want to take the time to mentor young preachers.

2. There is no emphasis on developing young preachers. No programs or encouragement to do so.

3. In the case of many progressive churches the concept being emphasized is that everybody is a minister, one on one evangelism, etc which is all good and true BUT we still need young ministers developed for full time ministry.

One problem with this seems to be - when/how do the young preachers get a chance to minister? If a church has two services a week, and there are 10 preachers in that church.... when/where/how do they all get to preach? There usually is really only room for 2 or 3 preachers to be really used in a church.

A lot of churches start nursing home ministries, street ministries, etc. to have a place to "use" the young ministers. But a lot of young ministers get discouraged with that, because they don't feel like that is "real" preaching.

A lot of them will go out "on the evangelistic field" hoping to become sought-out evangelists. Problem is, you usually have to be a real fire-ball to become sought-out and booked-up.

A LOT of young preachers get discouraged and quit because they "never get a chance to preach".

I think the whole issue needs an overhaul.

[A.W. Bowman]

Well, I guess I will put in a 'negative' word or two.

I think organizations/denominations have done more damage than good. Consider:

We focus more on being loyal to the pastor of the local church than to the needs of the saints and even the strangers among us. Then comes the loyalty to the organization (the loss of a license could mean the loss of social/peer acceptance and even employment). Finally, there is the proclaimed loyalty to a ‘spiritual’ Jesus, but the rest of His body on earth is excluded from any form of fellowship, much less loyalty.

To illustrate: Just a short while back, I was in a church where the pastor was very clear: I can’t control what the organization does or teaches, or what they teach in other churches. But, I can control what is taught in this church. What comes across this pulpit is not to be questioned or discussed, if such discussions contain questioning or opposing ideas. Different ideas from what I preach just create confusion in the minds of the people, especially children and new converts, and that is not of God.

If a church (pastor) is not licensed by an organization (in most states it only take 2 or 3 to establish a legal religious organization), they are not considered to be real 'men of God'.

An organization is created when a group of individuals gather together and declare among themselves that they are God's elect spiritual leaders. They then establish their own rules and standards for membership and establish their own doctrines and creeds. As a direct result, they resist the fellowship of people representing other organizations/denominations (over their methods of selecting religious leader and variances in their man made teachings), thereby creating yet another deliberate split (fracture) within the body of Christ.

Each organization, by whatever name they go by, has as its highest goal their own self justification for existing. Such a club is a ‘closed’ society. While petition for membership is generally permitted, membership is mostly by invitation only, where, like college fraternities, family members are given preference. Self perpetuating.

Now, for a positive report concerning organizations:

The major benefit of being a member of an organization is the availability of sharing resources and providing mutual support in time of need – assistance that might be supplied from distance places, when local supplies and other resources may be lacking. There is also the possibility of contributing to a retirement fund and taking advantage of group insurance rates. Have I missed anything of importance?

---------------------------------

Now, I publicly admit that I too am a member of an organization. My job is to assist in identifying manmade doctrines and influences within the major religious doctrines of our day, so that leaders of integrity can weed such non biblical elements from their preaching. One of the organizational goals is to find, encourage, train up, and send forth the next generation of preachers and teachers, and what other called men and women of God we can find. Men and women who hold their first loyalty to Jesus Christ, His body, and embrace the actual (practiced) word of God, adding nothing to it nor taking anything away from it. People who are committed to serving the body Christ and sharing the word and even the blessings of God upon the entire world, even to nonbelievers – just as Jesus and the early (pre-Constantine) disciples did.

How do we intend to accomplish this daunting task? Just like it was done in the very beginning – one soul at a time, more if they will.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

One problem with this seems to be - when/how do the young preachers get a chance to minister? If a church has two services a week, and there are 10 preachers in that church.... when/where/how do they all get to preach? There usually is really only room for 2 or 3 preachers to be really used in a church.

A lot of churches start nursing home ministries, street ministries, etc. to have a place to "use" the young ministers. But a lot of young ministers get discouraged with that, because they don't feel like that is "real" preaching.

A lot of them will go out "on the evangelistic field" hoping to become sought-out evangelists. Problem is, you usually have to be a real fire-ball to become sought-out and booked-up.

A LOT of young preachers get discouraged and quit because they "never get a chance to preach".

I think the whole issue needs an overhaul.

When I was a teenager and before I left for Bible College I held a little service at the local nursing home on either Saturday or Sunday afternoons (so long ago I forget which). Three or four other young people from the church would come to play the piano and sing then I would preach / teach for a few minutes. One of the neatest things was to hear an elderly black woman probably around 80-90 years old back in 1975 or so when I was doing this testify about being baptized in Jesus name when she was young. That would have had to have been probably before 1920.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by CC1

When I was a teenager and before I left for Bible College I held a little service at the local nursing home on either Saturday or Sunday afternoons (so long ago I forget which). Three or four other young people from the church would come to play the piano and sing then I would preach / teach for a few minutes. One of the neatest things was to hear an elderly black woman probably around 80-90 years old back in 1975 or so when I was doing this testify about being baptized in Jesus name when she was young. That would have had to have been probably before 1920.

Yes, I think it's an awesome ministry! I've done it, too.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by CC1

I am really surprised at the dismal demographics regarding the percentage of licensed ministers under the age of 35 (reported to be 4% if correct). I knew it would not be good but was shocked at how bad it is.

I think one of the weaknesses of many Oneness Pentecostal churches, not just UPC ones but exUPC ones as well, is a lack of mentoring young men to become preachers.

My anecdotal observation is that;

1. It appears many pastors do not want to take the time to mentor young preachers.

2. There is no emphasis on developing young preachers. No programs or encouragement to do so.

3. In the case of many progressive churches the concept being emphasized is that everybody is a minister, one on one evangelism, etc which is all good and true BUT we still need young ministers developed for full time ministry.

CC1,
I don't think it begins with the pastors not mentoring young preachers. It
should have began long before by fathers in the home. No, too many men
have left that part (spiritual) to the mothers and grandmothers and the
pastors.

I believe it begins in the HOME. Too many children are NOT "TRAINED UP IN
THE WAY they SHOULD go". Look at Paul, (who would have thought that Saul
of Tarsus would have been able to train up anyone"! Yet after Grandmother
Lois and Mother Eunice got through raising young Timothy, Paul was there,
ready to "father him in the gospel". Timothy's own father was a Greek and
was not a believer.

Look how God took a man like Saul and transformed him into a great apostle.
And he mentored Timothy. Both were used mightily of GOD! GOD can take an
ignorant (just don't know) man like Saul and put His Spirit in him and make a
useful vessel, fit for the Master's use! Saul knew the scriptures (Law). Trained
up in Law. But He needed to be born again. His understanding needed to be
illuminated. God takes the things that are foolish to man, to confound those
who are wise, or think they are!

There are those things which the Holy Ghost teaches. Get the Word (sincere
milk) in us and after the Holy Ghost, (the Spirit of Truth) is in us, It will lead
and guide us into all Truth. The Spirit illuminates the Word. Shines the Light
on the Word. Opens our understanding that we might understand the scrip-
tures. We go to school 12 yrs and just began to learn to live. We have
just began to learn, and need to have what we learned (Word) in out hearts,
when we receive the Holy Ghost.

Look at David, hidden out on the hills with his sheep, and how God chose
him above his brothers. But in His own time God brought David forth. However
David didn't become king as soon as he was anointed either.

Don't think GOD doesn't have those who have yet been hidden until the
time of His revealing. To bring forth those (men and women) who have been
trained up from the cradle, and had the Word put into their hearts and filled
with the Spirit of the Almighty. We never see all that God is doing and it is
usually not the way we thought it would be at all.

Moses, trained up by his own mother, in Pharoah's house, until the time of
revealing who he really was. The Deliverer of Israel. The one who would lead
them out of the howling wilderness. There is ONE who has delivered us out of
darkness into His Marvelous Light. Which were not a people, but are now the
people (children) of GOD! The Church, NEW Israel of God.

We need to have faith in GOD!

Falla39

[BroMatt]

The day after I got saved, I was witnessing and street preaching, casting out devils before the month was out (once I got to Mark 16, that is), right out in the street, in the middle of the night. Every day or two, I was waking the UPC preacher up to have someone baptized in Jesus name, and this went on for several weeks. One day he was tired of being awakened, and said from now on everyone needed to wait for Wednesday or Sunday services, and the mini revivial ceased. Several former drugies and ladies of the night became backbone members of the church before the revivial ended, and are still walking with God today.

Now nothing about my getting saved was conventional. I was baptized in Jesus name at about midnight having never been to church to hear the preaching of the gospel and all but threatening to beat up the pastor that wanted to wait til a scheduled service time. I asked him, "If I died before that service, would I go to hell?" He said, well, yes, so I said I am getting baptized NOW, and he understood that I was an extremly violent person and I was not asking. I was filled with the Holy Ghost in less than 2 hours, and immediately went to tell my old friends of the night.

I realize I was ignorant of the proper protocol, probably to anyone reasonably minded I was completely out of control, but I was FULL and overflowing with the Holy Ghost, dedicated to prayer roughly 8 hours of intense prayer a day, and though I did not understand the KJV the first 100 times I read it through or so, slowly I gathered some understanding, and I still slowly gather understanding, hee hee.

My pastor (in Glory now) had run for district superintendent, coming in second in the voting, but the vote was close. The requirement then was that in order for a young minister to get the initial license, the state superintendent had to sign the license, so all the preachers that didn't vote for the superintendent couldn't get the up and coming preachers licensed (only licensed preachers could vote).

My point is God is working to save the lost 24/7, and our schedules and organizational structures can become the enemy of the work of God. Many times souls get saved IN SPITE OF our best efforts, not because of them.

God is destroying everything that stands against His kingdom, and while the message of Acts 2:38 is valid and true, if we oppress and manipulate the people of God while we carry the truth, how are we then any different from the Pharisee of old?

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Someone recently posted the stats from the UPC magazine, and more had left than had signed up. There wasn't a gain, there was a loss.

Makes me think of when Samuel was looking at those tall handsome
sons of Jesse. Samuel wanted to know if Jesse had any more sons.
Yes, there was one young lad, out on the hills, tending the sheep.
Samuel wanted to see this young lad, and David was chosen. GOD
will always have a man, or perhaps a woman. HE made them both!
He does choose what man thinks as foolish to confound the wise.
God doesn't lose! He never left Himself without witness Never will!

Falla39

[MissBrattified]

One reason that young ministers aren't used as much is that churches simply don't have as many services and revivals as they used to. SOME do, but I would say the vast majority have gone to one service on Sunday, a weekly Bible study and revival services only once or twice a year. This limits opportunity naturally, because the pastor is going to want to preach on Sundays, leaving mostly teaching opportunities. That would leave evangelists being very competitive over revivals, and lead to the Starving Evangelist Syndrome if they depend on that for their livelihood. (Probably not a good idea--especially if they have a family.)

Add to that a lack of patience for up and coming preachers who may not have their oratorical act together, and you have an environment promoting the extinction of young ministers. Well, at least, after they graduate Bible College and start trying to do things on their own. Their best chance is to get on staff at a church somewhere, but if you're talking about a young man with the "preacher's itch", well...we're back to square one.

The best bet for young ministers in our present church culture is to take their ministry to the streets, jails, nursing homes and soup kitchens in the form of community service, but then you have many churches who aren't supportive of (or can't financially support) those types of efforts. Personally, I think that's the best place for young people to start anyway, but just like newly married couples who want a house and car as nice as their retired parents, young ministers often think they can walk out of Bible College and into the pastorate of a 500-person congregation with a 4 bedroom parsonage. It just doesn't work like that. So...more than one factor here, leading to a loss of young ministers:

1. Lack of a support system for their personal growth
2. Unreasonable expectations and disillusionment
3. Frustration with the "permanently in-the-box" thinking of many churches and leadership
4. Competitive field when it comes to finding churches to work or preach in.
5. Preacher's itch leading them to preach wherever they can, regardless of affiliation
6. Lack of true mentors

Etc.

It's obviously a problem. We don't need to be ostriches and stick our heads in the sand and pretend like we have a huge mass of young men and women flooding into churches ready to serve in whatever capacity they can. That just isn't happening.

[Charnock]

There are very few tangible benefits to org membership.

I have access to the ministerial roster, and can tell you that the UPC is licensing a record number of men, but those that are leaving are overwhelming those that are coming in.

There are less ministers in the org than five years ago. There are less churches than ten years ago. This, even though the org has broadened its definition of a "church" to include daughter works with no building.