What’s the Difference Between Holiness and Legalis - Page 3

Aquila · #21 03-19-2013, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Holiness is a result of grace,legalism is a attempt to merit grace.

Aquila · #22 03-19-2013, 06:39 AM

I believe that "holiness" is about an ever deepening oneness with God, through Christ, by the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. It's the progressive surrender of self until you increasingly put on the mind of Christ. You lose your identity in the sea of His majesty. You become enveloped in Him. Christ in us... is the standard... the goal... the aim... the mark.

Thus... for example... living to abide by dress codes doesn't work. Now, as one surrenders more and more to the abiding Spirit... they will dress more humbly and more modestly. But they need no legalistic form or fashion.

Legalism will fashion you into the image of the church, org, or denomination that presents their version of rules for you.

It's about Jesus... and being conformed into His image. Not the image of an org, church, or denomination.

Many will one day stand before Christ in judgment and be commended for being good baptists, pentecostals, catholics, methodists, and episcopals. But then Jesus is going to reveal to them that He is not a baptist, pentecostal, catholic, methodist, or episcopal.

Jesus, a person manifesting in you, that's the standard.

LUKE2447 · #23 03-19-2013, 06:42 AM

"1. A reliance on one's own performance to merit favor before God, rather than relying on Christ's performance at Calvary on their behalf"

While this in part is true if understood in a certain way which really is hard to push into this statement. I don't find this statement clear or well defined. It smells of OSAS and easy believism and very poor atonement theology.

Because God made a provision does not mean performance is still not a issue. Sure our performance had no relevance in his work AT the cross. The issue is realizing and continue to realize the work having come into covenant. It very much is based on performance and Revelation and the churches proves that as well as other scripture. If that is not the case OSAS is true. If you can lose salvation at all performance has to be true. To do what God asks of you to abide in him (John 15, 1 John 1:7) is performance. To turn and follow IS performance of the heart and denial and forsaking of all. While much of what he said is true. Following the Spirit is performance. To walk as he walked according to John is performance.

now the way the above statement can be reconciled is that he is talking about personal merit and waving a flag of self performance without faith(walking faith to follow) in Christ to justify ones self. However his last statment really makes it difficult. As Christ performance in itself saves nobody by itself. A person has to believe(continous action) the knowledge of the gospel. Not simply agree events happened but a submission of Lordship.

LUKE2447 · #24 03-19-2013, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Holiness is a result of grace,legalism is a attempt to merit grace.

that is all nice and stuff but that is not very well defined. People can take that to mean anything while saying we agree while it meaning something totally different.

LUKE2447 · #25 03-19-2013, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that "holiness" is about an ever deepening oneness with God, through Christ, by the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. It's the progressive surrender of self until you increasingly put on the mind of Christ. You lose your identity in the sea of His majesty. You become enveloped in Him. Christ in us... is the standard... the goal... the aim... the mark.

Thus... for example... living to abide by dress codes doesn't work. Now, as one surrenders more and more to the abiding Spirit... they will dress more humbly and more modestly. But they need no legalistic form or fashion.

Legalism will fashion you into the image of the church, org, or denomination that presents their version of rules for you.

It's about Jesus... and being conformed into His image. Not the image of an org, church, or denomination.

Many will one day stand before Christ in judgment and be commended for being good baptists, pentecostals, catholics, methodists, and episcopals. But then Jesus is going to reveal to them that He is not a baptist, pentecostal, catholic, methodist, or episcopal.

Jesus, a person manifesting in you, that's the standard.

I would agree with this.

Aquila · #26 03-19-2013, 06:54 AM

I believe that the only "law" we have is the "law of Christ" which is the "law of love".

We are commanded to do two things only...

1.) Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) We are to demonstrate our love for God by loving others as ourselves.

Anything more than this tends to birth legalism.

Now, there are many Christian principles we live by to grow in sanctification (Christlikeness). However, we do these things to draw closer to Christ and to foster greater depth of Christ in us. We do not do them to be saved.

Even the weakest child of God... is a child of God.

Now... if you want to be like Christ... love God.... love others.

LUKE2447 · #27 03-19-2013, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that the only "law" we have is the "law of Christ" which is the "law of love".

We are commanded to do two things only...

1.) Love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) We are to demonstrate our love for God by loving others as ourselves.

Anything more than this tends to birth legalism.

Now, there are many Christian principles we live by to grow in sanctification (Christlikeness). However, we do these things to draw closer to Christ and to foster greater depth of Christ in us. We do not do them to be saved.

Even the weakest child of God... is a child of God.

Now... if you want to be like Christ... love God.... love others.

catch 22 yes and no. We must do them to be saved in the end. Goal and purpose vs reality of not are two different things. you are only covered by the blood IF you walk. So yes we follow TO BE SAVED/DELIVERED in the end and receive the hope and promise of eternal life. It is a HOPE to them the believe (continous or keep on) So the HOPE of being saved is still future while having receive deliverance from the flesh by the Spirit to guide. Two different things.

Aquila · #28 03-19-2013, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

catch 22 yes and no. We must do them to be saved in the end. Goal and purpose vs reality of not are two different things. you are only covered by the blood IF you walk. So yes we follow TO BE SAVED/DELIVERED in the end and receive the hope and promise of eternal life. It is a HOPE to them the believe (continous or keep on) So the HOPE of being saved is still future while having receive deliverance from the flesh by the Spirit to guide. Two different things.

Only God can decide to cut one off for not producing fruit. And he often does. However, if God doesn't cut one off... even the most carnal, prayerless, but sincere born again Christian will be saved... yet so as by fire.

The Lemon · #29 03-19-2013, 07:36 AM

I would tend to agree that the very term "leagalist" is thrown around quite a bit and the definitions tend to vary.

To assume there is no personal responsibility or accountability for our own salvation would be error. We each need to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

Having said that, what I do needs to come from my love and relationship with Christ...not to earn a position, status, or approval, but because I love Him, and He loves me...relationship. If I love Him, I will DO..whatever He may desire me to do..but cheifly what the Word requires of me.

It is more clear to me the older I get that love is the center point, without it, all you have is expectation and rules...hollow and empty. I am sure there are legalists amoung us but I doubt it is as many as some believe.

I am aware of the on-going argument about pants, hair, make-up, mixed bathing and ect., and I know that these subjects can be devisive, still, I believe their are Christians who hold to these standards out of love for Christ, and it is not my place to try and tell them it is unnecessary. Of course, that is a two way street.

I have minister friends who would put their ministry above everything including their own families...I personally do not agree with this, and find it to not be a Biblical stance, but at the end of the day, it is their responsibility, their life, and their call...not mine. Sometimes I do wonder if this is done in a effort to prove to God that they are sold out and commited, wheather necessary or not.

My honest opinion is that if you walk humbly before God, regard Him, love Him, and try your best to live a life pleasing to Him...He is not going to allow you to just flounder around until you die or He returns...sorry. I also believe you need to be strong enough in your own walk, and rooted enough to not allow every wind to sway you any which way. Stay morally grounded, have a strong ethical stance, and walk with Character and integrity. Have a good work ethic, and know when to speak, and when to listen...wisdom is justified of her children.

LUKE2447 · #30 03-19-2013, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Only God can decide to cut one off for not producing fruit. And he often does. However, if God doesn't cut one off... even the most carnal, prayerless, but sincere born again Christian will be saved... yet so as by fire.

God is consistent. You cannot be lukewarm and not be spewed. You are being purified by walking or not. Also to use "prayerless" is impossible in your usage. You cannot be sincere and prayerless.