Help! What have I become?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

I understand this is one of those scriptures that appear to say Jesus and God are the same. But, I see a BIG difference in an invisible God, and a visible image of God. For me, it more clearly illustrates their differences. I'm supposed to be the image of Christ, but surely no one believes I should BE Christ.



And that is everything. That question assumes Jesus is a GOD. I understand him to have been a MAN. At his birth, during his entire life, and even at his death. He was a man. He then died. The risen Jesus had a glorified body. He has a body, but not one like a man. When I say man, I mean one with a corruptible body that must be overcome.



This describes how Jesus is the new "mouthpiece" of God that replaced the prophets of the Old Testament. I really love the description of a God who appoints an heir, His Son! Here is a description of exactly how much love a father can have toward a son! This entire world is made by God with His Son in mind! Even from the very beginning!

Amazing how this describes Jesus himself dying for our sins! I was always taught that his sinless life was only possible because He WAS God living as a man. Be here it clearly shows Jesus doing the work, then sitting on the right hand of God! The church I attend has had Brother Bernard come and teach this as something completely different than it says. When explaining this verse, he joking asked, Was he sitting on His lap? So yes, I think I already know your viewpoint on this. Mine has changed to just believe it the way its stated. That faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe has turned on a different light in my head.

If Jesus is the image of the invisible God, if Jesus is the One who shows or demonstrates He Whom No Man CAN See, then there is no seeing of God other than seeing Jesus. I am amazed how you read that, quoted it even, and yet seemed to completely miss the significance of what that says!

The rest of your post proves what I suspected and alluded to earlier: you were taught an aberrant theology you were told is called "Oneness". Jesus wasn't sinless because He was God. He was sinless because He fully obeyed the will of God at all times, as He Himself testified. This aberration that Jesus was sinless BECAUSE He was God is Roman Catholic trinitarian dogma based on their heretical doctrine of inherited original sin being a component essence of human nature. Sinless means fully obedient. Jesus always did what was pleasing to His Father. Therefore, He was "without sin." It has nothing to do with His ontological nature as God (whatever that is even supposed to mean).

As for "right hand", how does an omnipresent spirit being have a right hand, literally? Obviously "right hand" is necessarily symbolic of the position of power and authority. Jesus being on the right hand of God has nothing whatsoever to do with geospatial location. Unless you believe God is a finite being with literal right and left hands?

Is that what you believe? God is a finite being with literal right and left hands?

You say "faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe". Okay, then do you believe what the Word says? It says:

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ is the one who is to appear. He is called by the apostle "the great God and our saviour". There aren't two beings who are to appear, the grammar is irrefutable and clear. Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour. Is He YOUR great God and saviour?

Or how about this:

Revelation 21:6-7 KJV
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The Alpha and Omega is to be our God and Father. Who is the Alpha and Omega?

Revelation 1:8 KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John heard the Alpha and Omega speaking, and the Alpha and Omega claims to be the first and the last. Who is this speaking?

Revelation 1:12-18 KJV
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. [17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John turned turned to see who this Alpha and Omega, this first and last, previously identified as the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father. And who did he see? JESUS CHRIST, the Son of Man, claiming to be the first and the last! So Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father.

You believe SOME of the Word, but not ALL of the Word.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Jesus is the image of the invisible God, if Jesus is the One who shows or demonstrates He Whom No Man CAN See, then there is no seeing of God other than seeing Jesus. ...

I disagree with your IF-IF-THEN statement. Part of our hope, is that we will see Him as He is. I myself, am looking forward to seeing God in the new creation!

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am amazed how you read that, quoted it even, and yet seemed to completely miss the significance of what that says!

Read it, yes. Quoted it, yes. BELIEVED it? Yes! "Missed the significance?" That really sounds like you read something into it that's JUST NOT THERE! No, I did not do that, and I try very hard not to do that!

Originally Posted by Esaias

The rest of your post proves what I suspected and alluded to earlier: you were taught an aberrant theology you were told is called "Oneness".

What "aberrant theology... called Oneness" are you referring to? How do you define that title?

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus wasn't sinless because He was God. He was sinless because He fully obeyed the will of God at all times, as He Himself testified. This aberration that Jesus was sinless BECAUSE He was God is Roman Catholic trinitarian dogma based on their heretical doctrine of inherited original sin being a component essence of human nature. Sinless means fully obedient. Jesus always did what was pleasing to His Father. Therefore, He was "without sin." ...

I mostly agree. That seems quite different than what most people believe who fit into my Sameness description. I don't think you've stated what your defining beliefs are that make you Oneness, or whatever else you may call yourself, have you?

Originally Posted by Esaias

... As for "right hand", how does an omnipresent spirit being have a right hand, literally?...

I don't know, you should ask God. His word says it, I believe it, and so I also say it. Somehow though, I really can envision the intended illustration described. That's just the words He chose to use...

Originally Posted by Esaias

...Obviously "right hand" is necessarily symbolic of the position of power and authority. Jesus being on the right hand of God has nothing whatsoever to do with geospatial location....

And there is YOUR stated belief. I prefer the original, God's description. To me, His makes more sense. It follows along with all His other scriptures.

Originally Posted by Esaias

...Unless you believe God is a finite being with literal right and left hands? Is that what you believe? God is a finite being with literal right and left hands?...

Nope.

Originally Posted by Esaias

...You say "faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe". Okay, then do you believe what the Word says? ...

Yes.

Originally Posted by Esaias

..It says:

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ is the one who is to appear. He is called by the apostle "the great God and our saviour". There aren't two beings who are to appear, the grammar is irrefutable and clear. Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour. Is He YOUR great God and saviour?..

I will answer this in great detail in a future post. Stay tuned...

Originally Posted by Esaias

..Or how about this:

Revelation 21:6-7 KJV
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The Alpha and Omega is to be our God and Father. Who is the Alpha and Omega?

Revelation 1:8 KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John heard the Alpha and Omega speaking, and the Alpha and Omega claims to be the first and the last. Who is this speaking?

Revelation 1:12-18 KJV
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. [17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John turned turned to see who this Alpha and Omega, this first and last, previously identified as the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father. And who did he see? JESUS CHRIST, the Son of Man, claiming to be the first and the last! So Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father.

You believe SOME of the Word, but not ALL of the Word.

This, too, will be answered in a separate, future post.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ is the one who is to appear. He is called by the apostle "the great God and our saviour". There aren't two beings who are to appear, the grammar is irrefutable and clear. Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour. Is He YOUR great God and saviour?

Esaias,

Sorry its taken so long for me to respond to this portion of your post. I'll try to get to the lower portion later tonight on a separate post.

The quoted verse doesn't say "Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour." Those are your words because that is your viewpoint. It says, "...God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ..." capitalization added to the "and" by me to point out the importance of the word. I think removing it would greatly change the meaning. I don't do that. I just believe it that way, I say it that way, therefore I think it that way.

But still, let's get down to the details of it. First, let's set aside the verses where Paul COMPLETELY explains what he means. It's just a few verses ahead in Titus 3:4-6.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

This is clearly NOT saying Jesus and God are the same. In verse 4, he does NOT say God appeared. He says God's kindness and His love He has toward us appeared; that's Jesus our Savior. Also, the washing and renewing God shed on us was done THROUGH Jesus.

Almost always, when the scripture appears to be saying God and Jesus are the same, keep reading. Or, back up a few chapters. You'll find many other scriptures that need to be read and thought of IN AGREEMENT of each other.

Ok, so a few details that might also come up. God is the savior, Jesus is the savior. Agreed. They must be the same? Disagree. I want to use an analogy to explain my beliefs. Remember, it's just an analogy. A criminal uses a knife to hold a victim hostage. A police officer shoots the criminal, freeing the hostage. Who is the savior? Is it the police officer? Is it the police department that sent the officer? Is it the nice lady that called the police department? For me, they're all saviors.

Another detail; You may ask, "If you think of God and Jesus differently, here the word APPEARING is used for BOTH. "...appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...". I touched on this idea in the previous post, but here is another thought. John 3:8:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is how Jesus chose to explain the Spirit to Nicodemus. It's like the wind, when you hear it, you know its there. Also, we see the trees moved by the wind, we know its there and operating, because the nature of trees is NOT to move of their own free will. Also, for me, not all APPEARING is visual. Just ask a blind person. Even still, God's glory will light the city. But, I don't think of God's glory as everything that God is.

I just reread your comments and saw your point about two BEINGS.

I don't think of two beings. I would say Jesus is a being since he is a human being and had a fleshly body that is now glorified, but God is supernatural. He's a Spirit. For me, comparing them is to compare the Creator to His Creation. I know people do it, I just don't see scripture where doing that is necessary.

As a matter of fact, If you can show me ONE scripture that states that eternal life is based on believing that Jesus came AS a GOD or a GOD/MAN, rather than the multitude of scriptures stating you must believe God SENT Jesus as a man, that would be enough for me to never mention this thought again. Here's the first one that comes to mind:

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 Timothy 6:14-16 KJV
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

I'm not sure what you are saying with these verses. I believe "in his times" refers to how Jesus will be the "King of kings, and Lord of lords" in the millennial reign, and verse 16 describes his current position of "dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto" which is another way of saying sitting at the right hand of God.

Originally Posted by Esaias

If you look into God's face whose face will you see?

You just answered this with 1 Timothy 6:16.

"...dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see..."

That Light is God "which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", so how can you ask, "If you look into God's face..."? This is NOT true of Jesus! Many saw Him as He was. And this is not the only scripture that states No man hath seen God at any time. I know you don't believe this, and I know I can never get you to say it or to think it, or even respond to it, but surely you've read it and have a way of explaining how it fits into your sameness understanding? I had to change my entire viewpoint on Oneness to be able to say I believe exactly what these scriptures say! It was difficult, but NOW all these other Bible scriptures fit and there are no discrepancies that I can find!

[jmarkoa]

Esaias,

I don't know what that means. I've never mentioned anything about space, or a space suit. Did you comment on the wrong thread?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Esaias,

I don't know what that means. I've never mentioned anything about space, or a space suit. Did you comment on the wrong thread?

Sorry, I was talking to Michael.

[jmarkoa]

Michael,

After rereading your post, I don't get this, "...even the way many in Oneness teach the deity of Christ ...". Can you better explain what you think some are teaching?

My limited knowledge is of Oneness teaching is only of two separate beliefs, one that God came as Jesus as a man, and one that Jesus was a man sent by God. I know there was the whole "divine flesh" a while back. I thought that went away.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Michael,

After rereading your post, I don't get this, "...even the way many in Oneness teach the deity of Christ ...". Can you better explain what you think some are teaching?

My limited knowledge is of Oneness teaching is only of two separate beliefs, one that God came as Jesus as a man, and one that Jesus was a man sent by God. I know there was the whole "divine flesh" a while back. I thought that went away.

There are some at least "former" Oneness believers such as Gino Ginnings, Gabe the Street Preacher, and the Word Prophet all who appear on Youtube who do not believe Jesus pre existed as God.

Best I can tell they teach the logos was Gods thought or plan that he designed in eternity. The thought or plan was revealed as the man Jesus at his birth. At his baptism or somewhere along the way the fullness of God entered him.

They may say he is God but ONLY with the qualification that God or the Father was "in him".

What the teachers of this doctrine seem to agree on is that Jesus did NOT PRE EXIST.

[jmarkoa]

Michael,

Since you mentioned how you see John 1 and what it means to your belief of Oneness, I'll briefly share my own beliefs and how I read those scriptures.

My belief is that the "He" in verse 10 you mentioned, is actually God referenced in the first two verses.

I only see God and John the Baptist in the first 13 verses. Jesus isn't mentioned until verse 14. It explains that Jesus was made by God. Jesus was made flesh. And John, the writer, clears up any confusion with verse 18:

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

I see Jesus as the second Adam, who was also a son of God, but not God. Only, Jesus was created through the miracle of a virgin birth, not by God's hands the way Adam was made. So, I'm sure Jesus was given the same type of relationship that Adam got from God. Adam walked and talked with God and did amazing things with his Creator. So my belief is that God must have been just as good a Father to Jesus as He was to Adam; leading, guiding, teaching and loving Him. By the age of 12 Jesus already knew his life was to be for a witness of God. He mistakenly thought it was to happen immediately at that early age. But, he had more to learn from his mom and dad.

Anyway, I've probably rambled on too far. But, that is how I read those scriptures.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Michael,

Since you mentioned how you see John 1 and what it means to your belief of Oneness, I'll briefly share my own beliefs and how I read those scriptures.

My belief is that the "He" in verse 10 you mentioned, is actually God referenced in the first two verses.

I only see God and John the Baptist in the first 13 verses. Jesus isn't mentioned until verse 14. It explains that Jesus was made by God. Jesus was made flesh. And John, the writer, clears up any confusion with verse 18:

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

I see Jesus as the second Adam, who was also a son of God, but not God. Only, Jesus was created through the miracle of a virgin birth, not by God's hands the way Adam was made. So, I'm sure Jesus was given the same type of relationship that Adam got from God. Adam walked and talked with God and did amazing things with his Creator. So my belief is that God must have been just as good a Father to Jesus as He was to Adam; leading, guiding, teaching and loving Him. By the age of 12 Jesus already knew his life was to be for a witness of God. He mistakenly thought it was to happen immediately at that early age. But, he had more to learn from his mom and dad.

Anyway, I've probably rambled on too far. But, that is how I read those scriptures.

I think you believe that Jesus was simply an anointed man, that was created without the sinful nature, like Adam. Is that correct?