Forgiveness or Remission?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Baptism is necessary for the repentant, but forgiveness is by Gods grace alone. Acts 2:38 can unintentionally become a 3 step formula to receive Gods remission of sin, when instead obedience is simply the obvious response of the recipient of Gods grace. The sinner on the cross received no outward demonstration or seal of his faith, but God extended grace to him anyways. This does not negate obedience to the gospel found in the book of Acts and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The work of God on our lives involves much more of God and less of ourselves then what we sometimes realize.

Bump

This is my original post in this discussion. I may have derailed the discussion from the intention of the original post. You where right along with me.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Baptism is necessary for the repentant, but forgiveness is by Gods grace alone. Acts 2:38 can unintentionally become a 3 step formula to receive Gods remission of sin, when instead obedience is simply the obvious response of the recipient of Gods grace. The sinner on the cross received no outward demonstration or seal of his faith, but God extended grace to him anyways. This does not negate obedience to the gospel found in the book of Acts and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The work of God on our lives involves much more of God and less of ourselves then what we sometimes realize.

This is first post I posted.

Notice the underlined statement.

I didn’t mention the sinner on the cross to disprove the necessity of baptism, but to place emphasis on the source of our forgiveness, which is the work of God.

You have been saying that we are forgiven when we get baptized.

I have been saying that if we are forgiven we will be baptized.

[Esaias]

Well, you offered no scriptural proof concerning the thief so I'll just move on from that.

A few remarks:

1. Christian baptism presumes sincere faith (Acts 8:36-37). So when we speak of baptism, we do not speak of some sham, nor infant "baptism", nor forced "baptisms", so called. Instead, we are speaking of a sincere believing response to the Gospel.

2. Repentance means a reversal of one's course. It means ceasing to be whatever you were and becoming a Christian. Or in the case of backsliders, ceasing to be a disobedient Christian and becoming an obedient Christian. Biblical repentance for sinners includes becoming a Christian, a disciple of Christ. One does not become a Christian apart from baptism into the name of Christ.

3. Many are non-apostolic, but instead are modern Protestant, baptistic, evangelical in regards to their doctrine of conversion. This modern heretical and unbiblical view holds "repentance" to be a specific moment in time in which a "decision" is made to "accept Jesus as Saviour" or to ask for forgiveness from God or to "begin following Christ" or some other variation on the same theme. It is almost ALWAYS identified with a prayer and a "trip to the altar". The Bible NEVER shows conversion in this manner.

This modern decisionism was practically invented by Charles Finney and quickly adopted by Methodists, some New Light Presbyterians, other "holiness" and "revival" movements, in the early 1800s. He taught that God uses "means" (tools, methods) in converting and saving sinners, especially during revivals. Revival preachers must use certain means or methods to bring the Gospel to sinners and see their conversion. One of these means which he invented was the "Anxious Seat". This method involved preaching a revival message, then inviting anyone who was "anxious about the condition of their soul" to come sit up front so the preacher and a few other saints or family members could pray for the person and plead with them to submit to Christ. This was adopted by Methodists who would set up a "Penitent Form" or "Mourner's Bench", a makeshift bench where those under conviction could come and pray to God for forgiveness while the preacher and saints prayed for them and exhorted them to put total faith in Christ to absolve them of their sins and sanctify them by removing the "root of sin and rebellion from their heart".

Later, Dwight Moody modified it and popularised it as "coming forward" and "accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour". Many modern Oneness Pentecostals have taken this same methodology and they call it "repentance", where people who want to be saved "come forward" to "the altar" (modern version of the Mourner's Bench) to pray to God for forgiveness and "make a decision for Christ".

What's funny is Finney, the inventor of the whole thing, admits in his sermon on Means To Be Used In Revivals that the Anxious Seat and the Mourner's Bench are modern methods that in Bible days was served by baptism. Meaning that what you all today call "repentance" as an act taking place in a meeting is a modern substitute for baptism.

4. Baptism is the God-ordained means by which a person is placed into Christ, identifying with His substitutionary death and atonement (Romans 6:3-7), it is the means by which Christ saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Since apart from the blood there is no release from sins (Hebrews 9:22), and since the blood of Christ is a reference to His death for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3, Revelation 1:5), then baptism is the event in which Christ's death is applied to us as an effective covering or atonement for sins, securing the release (remission or forgiveness) of our sins and debt we thereby had incurred.


5. Every decision has two parts. First, the intention, followed by the actual deciding to do something which happens when the intention is acted upon. If you decide to go to the store, but never leave the house, did you really DECIDE TO GO to the store? If you decide to become a Christian, you need to then actually become a Christian. The mere mental decision to do something is not the person actually choosing a course of action, one must actually DO the thing decided upon. Becoming a Christian is done by being baptized into Christ's Name, making a public confession of Christ before others. If you "decide" to get baptized, have you thereby been baptized? No, you must actually DO it. If you "decide" to turn from sin and follow Christ and be His disciple, have you thereby done it? No, must actually DO it, you must actually cease from sinning and actually become His disciple by being baptized in His Name:

James 2:19-26 KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[good samaritan]

Well, you offered no scriptural proof concerning the thief so I'll just move on from that

Do you really believe the thief on the cross is in hell?

I could care less the history of mourners benches, but I am thrilled to see remorse for a sinful life. I don’t care if it is in someone’s living room, in the break room on someone’s lunch break, or at the front of the church. It is good to see repentance followed by baptism in Jesus name baptism. Maybe, I am misunderstanding, but it seems you are saying there is no need for emotion from regret, just get baptized.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Do you really believe the thief on the cross is in hell?

I could care less the history of mourners benches, but I am thrilled to see remorse for a sinful life. I don’t care if it is in someone’s living room, in the break room on someone’s lunch break, or at the front of the church. It is good to see repentance followed by baptism in Jesus name baptism. Maybe, I am misunderstanding, but it seems you are saying there is no need for emotion from regret, just get baptized.

I don't think you have grasped what I have been saying.

Do you believe and preach that people are forgiven of their sins before they are baptised?

[good samaritan]

I have seen more people filled with the Holy Ghost on their knees in prayer than in the baptistry. If people don’t become forgiven until baptism, then how do they receive baptism of the Spirit before water baptism. Your logic is that people born of the Spirit are still in their sins until water baptism. People who are filled with the Spirit will definitely want to become baptized. I am not refuting baptism, but baptism is a work of repentance and not repentance itself.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I have seen more people filled with the Holy Ghost on their knees in prayer than in the baptistry. If people don’t become forgiven until baptism, then how do they receive baptism of the Spirit before water baptism. Your logic is that people born of the Spirit are still in their sins until water baptism. People who are filled with the Spirit will definitely want to become baptized. I am not refuting baptism, but baptism is a work of repentance and not repentance itself.

What is "remission of sins"? I have proven from Scripture that forgiveness and remission are THE SAME THING. I have proven from Scripture that sins are forgiven in baptism. I have proven from Scripture that Christ's death secures the pardon of our sin, and that Christ's death is effectually applied to us in baptism.

You ask about "The Cornelius Exception", people receiving the Spirit before being baptized. Apparently they got the Holy Ghost before making any altar call, praying Jesus into their heart, or "feeling lots of remorse and emotion" as you described "repentance".

Matthew 10:1-8 KJV
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [2] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; [3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; [4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. [8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Judas, whom Jesus identified as a "devil", had Holy Ghost miracle working power. Did God anoint a devil to preach Jesus Name revivals with power and signs following? Apparently, if we accept your terminology.

The Gentiles in Acts 10 were an EXCEPTION, precisely because nobody would ever baptize them without a divine intervention to show that Gentiles also are eligible for the New Covenant. How can you be a licensed UPC preacher and not know these things? Well, never mind about that. Some folks get the Holy Ghost before baptism. Some in baptism. Some after baptism. That has no bearing on the Bible Fact that baptism is for the remission (forgiveness) of sins.

[Esaias]

Repentance is not "emotion from regret". Judas had that. He had it so bad he offed himself. The emotion of GODLY SORROW however is what will PRODUCE REPENTANCE. Thus proving repentance is not an emotion or a cathartic emotional release, but a turning that is the RESULT of the tissue-time at the altar:

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 KJV
Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[good samaritan]

That emotion of regret is what brings us to repents. I first feel bad for my wrong then I change.

[good samaritan]

The. Difference between godly sorrow and sorrow of the world is the outcome. godly sorrow leads us to change, but when our sorrow just becomes a dark hopeless place it is just a sorrow of the world. Peter wept bitterly for his failure and he repented!