Are we are under the commands of the first 5 books

[jediwill83]

Ok...Im creeping and nibbling as I have time to check in. Really good discussion. Lets shift perspective a bit. We look BACK on old times when the Law was written, and its easy to see it as antiquated, however, put yourselves in their shoes.


The Law was a MAJOR step forward in creating a society, the likes of which had not been seen.


It was a major step forward in progressive thinking when you compare it to the surrounding religions and idolotry.


It was enacting consequences to evil that was commonly accepted at the time.

[Amanah]

The Torah is the story of a Kingdom, Israel

The coming King, Jesus Messiah

The law of the Kingdom teaching Israel how to love God and love each other.

The culture of the Kingdom, the beautiful prophetic festivals pointing to Messiah:

Passover, Messiah crucified
Unleavened bread, Messiah buried
First Fruits, Messiah risen
Pentecost, Holy Spirit given
Day of trumpets, second coming
Day of Atonement, day of judgement
Feast of Tabernacles, Millennium and Messiah born
Last great day, eternity with YHVH

The gospel of the Kingdom:
Blood on the doorposts, through the red sea, cloud by day and fire by night
The Tabernacle plan

God's Kingdom in opposition to Nimrod's kingdom of Babylon with it's anti God government, and it's anti God religion and festivals.

Today we are living with the clash of those two Kingdoms.

We need to be grafted in to Israel, into God's kingdom.

In the end Babylon is defeated and God's kingdom will rule on the earth with Paradise restored.

[Amanah]

Interesting fact:

Jesus fulfilled all the spring festivals on the day of the festival.

The fall festivals have yet to be fulfilled.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Ok...Im creeping and nibbling as I have time to check in. Really good discussion. Lets shift perspective a bit. We look BACK on old times when the Law was written, and its easy to see it as antiquated, however, put yourselves in their shoes.


The Law was a MAJOR step forward in creating a society, the likes of which had not been seen.


It was a major step forward in progressive thinking when you compare it to the surrounding religions and idolotry.


It was enacting consequences to evil that was commonly accepted at the time.

I wouldn't call it "progressive" or "a major step forward". I certainly wouldn't call it "antiquated". To my mind, it was and is perfect. It was ordained by God Himself. As such, for human society, there simply is no comparison to the systems invented by man, except in such areas as they borrowed from the Divine legislation.

Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
(Deu 4:5-8)

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

We can further see this self centered thinking manifest itself in pop eschatology. "The world will get worse and worse and then the End(tm) shall come." People sitting around waiting on the rapture instead of obeying Christ and helping to spread His KINGDOM to all nations. They are perfectly willing to let the world go to hell in a handbasket (woven by them, even) instead of actively spearheading the advancement of Christ's DOMINION over all things.

Sodomite marriage on the political agenda? No worries, it's sad and lamentable but who really cares because this world's not my home I'm just a-passing through, right? Never mind the cesspool we're leaving to our grandkids as an inheritance.

Modern churchianity has no answer. It's clueless sycophants are only concerned with going to heaven (though none of them want to die to get there). They can't be bothered with things like GOD'S LAW FOR ALL NATIONS. And why should they be? They can't even stomach God regulating their work schedule, forget about God regulating the whole society!

But Biblical Christians understand that the Divine Command to REPENT applies to the Governor and the Judge, the King and the Pope, the banker and the candlestick maker, as much as to anyone else. And that repentance requires a cessation of disobedience to the Divine Law, a return to full, hearty, sincere obedience to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. They understand what sin is, that it is transgression of the Divine Law. And thus they understand that it is SIN for any government to establish or even recognize sodomite marriage, no fault divorce, to allow adultery and fornication to go unpunished, to promote idolatry or to ignore blasphemy against God and His Christ, and so forth.

This is why antinomian churchianity is promoted and even subsidized by government. It produces fake "christians" with no message and no power to turn the world order upside down.

I had to look up antinomian again lol. Here is the first definition via google:

relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.

I have never known a Christian who teaches that we are released from moral laws. The problem is there is not a distinction drawn in the Old Testament which is moral and wich is ceremonial. We only have the law as a whole.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend At one point, he is guilty of all.

We cannot be consistent and pick and choose which laws carry over into the New Testament, but we can learn from them all and apply them relevantly today. In the New Testament, we have the law written in our hearts. We are to live for God in a personal way where we have a connection to the direct source of true righteousness. There is no law necessary, for the pretenders, God will sort them out.

1 Timothy 1:5-8
5......Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6......From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7......Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8......But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10......For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11......According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

I am thankful for the instruction given to us through the law, but I am glad that it is the Spirit not of the letter of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I wouldn't call it "progressive" or "a major step forward". I certainly wouldn't call it "antiquated". To my mind, it was and is perfect. It was ordained by God Himself. As such, for human society, there simply is no comparison to the systems invented by man, except in such areas as they borrowed from the Divine legislation.

Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
(Deu 4:5-8)

Much of laws require an amending. The ten commandments for the most part can stand on, but Jesus even elaborated that the love of God is deeper than just not murdering. The Sabbath is another issue because we as a society don’t use the same calendars. We can still enjoy a day of rest from work and worship. We also can enter a rest that is deeper than what can be benefited from a physical day. The problem with such legslism especially is that it is not taught by the apostles.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Much of laws require an amending. The ten commandments for the most part can stand on, but Jesus even elaborated that the love of God is deeper than just not murdering. The Sabbath is another issue because we as a society don’t use the same calendars. We can still enjoy a day of rest from work and worship. We also can enter a rest that is deeper than what can be benefited from a physical day. The problem with such legslism especially is that it is not taught by the apostles.

Sure thing, dood.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Much of laws require an amending. The ten commandments for the most part can stand on, but Jesus even elaborated that the love of God is deeper than just not murdering. The Sabbath is another issue because we as a society don’t use the same calendars. We can still enjoy a day of rest from work and worship. We also can enter a rest that is deeper than what can be benefited from a physical day. The problem with such legslism especially is that it is not taught by the apostles.

These are not suggestions, but commandments, and breaking them is a sin:

Lev 19:17-18 NKJV - (17) 'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. (18) 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I [am] the LORD.

This is called exposition:

Mat 5:21-22 NKJV - (21) "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' (22) "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

I think you are without realizing or admitting it? making a characterization of the God of the Old Testament as a different God than that of the New Testament. Borderline Marcionism.

Marcion didn't get it either, and couldn't live with such apparent "conflicts", so he ended up resolving it by making two Gods.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

These are not suggestions, but commandments, and breaking them is a sin:

Lev 19:17-18 NKJV - (17) 'You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. (18) 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I [am] the LORD.

This is called exposition:

Mat 5:21-22 NKJV - (21) "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' (22) "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

I think you are without realizing or admitting it? making a characterization of the God of the Old Testament as a different God than that of the New Testament. Borderline Marcionism.

Marcion didn't get it either, and couldn't live with such apparent "conflicts", so he ended up resolving it by making two Gods.

Colossians 2:16-17
16......Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17......Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I am not characterizing two Gods, but instead I’m trying to insist upon salvation in Christ alone. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. The moral issues of the law are still at work in our hearts, but the literal ordinances of Old Testament where specific to Israel.

Exodus 35:1-3
1......And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
2......Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3......Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

This law would be hard to keep here in TN when we had below zero temps about a month ago. Also, what about occupational doctors, nurses, receptionists and paramedics that work in the ER’s across our country seven days a week. I suppose they cannot be right with God until they quit violating the Sabbath. If you are turning your light switch on during the seventh day you are part of the problem obligating people to work in plants that produce that energy.

I don’t see any issue when I recognize that Jesus fulfilled the law given to Moses. We can glean much from that law, but we must recognize that the law was given to a particular nation, at a particular place, and at a particular time. God has not changed therefore the essence of that law will always be the same although applications may not always be.

[Esaias]

Can't even post anymore?

Edit: the forum is glitching...

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Exodus 35:1-3
1......And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
2......Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3......Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

This law would be hard to keep here in TN when we had below zero temps about a month ago. Also, what about occupational doctors, nurses, receptionists and paramedics that work in the ER’s across our country seven days a week. I suppose they cannot be right with God until they quit violating the Sabbath. If you are turning your light switch on during the seventh day you are part of the problem obligating people to work in plants that produce that energy.

You've got to be kidding me.