Israel is an abomination

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, what happened Saturday, cannot be equated to the Babylonian exile, or the destruction by the Romans. Our only job is to convince them of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As Brother Esaias said, its not our problem. They have been at each others throats since 1948. The history of religious and Secular Zionism in that region has failed miserably. Even all the Christian Zionist Fundamentalists can't help this situation now. It isn't the 1980s anymore. The Internet has pretty much helped educate many studious Christians to be able to see the ugly truth about this Middle Eastern conflict. Funny how no one ever believed Joe Biden before. Yet, he and CNN said that they saw pictures of babies beheaded? Then the White House had to correct that statement as untrue? Sadly, so many "Christians" wanted to believe it. My dear brother, when you have Christians slide down the rabbit hole, who will reach out to the sinner?

Not completely "equated," obviously, but it certainly can be compared. All I'm really trying to point out is the inconsistency of the dispensationalist camp who on the one hand don't flinch at God using pagan nations to punish Israel in the Old Testament, but recoil at the thought of God doing the same thing today. This is what my comparison was all about. We see a bunch of self-professed Israelis (but not really) at a rave party, half-naked, glorying in sensuality, all reminiscent of the golden-calf worshipers in Exodus. Then, from out of nowhere, an enemy people sweep in and reap havoc, and take away captives. It is a great opportunity to school dispensationalists on the inconsistencies of their views. .

[shag]

Do Oneness Pentecostal dispensationalists believe that Israelites/Jews whatever do not have to Believe on Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and obey the gospel like everybody else, to make it to heaven, because they are supposedly already “Gods chosen people”?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Not completely "equated," obviously, but it certainly can be compared. All I'm really trying to point out is the inconsistency of the dispensationalist camp who on the one hand don't flinch at God using pagan nations to punish Israel in the Old Testament, but recoil at the thought of God doing the same thing today. This is what my comparison was all about. We see a bunch of self-professed Israelis (but not really) at a rave party, half-naked, glorying in sensuality, all reminiscent of the golden-calf worshipers in Exodus. Then, from out of nowhere, an enemy people sweep in and reap havoc, and take away captives. It is a great opportunity to school dispensationalists on the inconsistencies of their views. .

You see the contradiction because you aren’t a Pre Trib Post Trib Dispensationalist Christian Zionist. I know, that’s a mouthful. Inconsistency and contradictions abound in their eschatology. If you were to sit down with all the ministers and preachers who hold to Dispensationalism, your take away would be this, they all have different thoughts on the subject. Dispensationalism isn’t just part of our movement religiously. But politically. Religiously it causes some churches like the United Pentecostal Church in Cooper City Florida to allow Rabbis to stand on their platform and speak from their pulpit. Politically they will allow Israeli politicians to do the same. Brother Esaias stated it perfectly. It’s not our problem. It gets to a point where we must knock the dirt from our sandals and move on from the madness. While I can understand your heart that this looks like a great opportunity to remove the scales from their eyes. The sad truth is that their cognitive dissonance has given them ecclesiastical dementia. They see any criticism of modern Israel as blasphemy. It’s not just an eschatological issue but a soteriological issue. The Apostolic Pentecostal pastor who should be the sighted guide in this situation bows before the Christ Hating Rabbi. Making statements as “we worship the same God!” All while the Pentecostal pastor quotes the Shema.
The reality is we don’t worship the same God, we worship Jesus Christ as our Father, King, and Pastor.

There was a time when giving out material, and getting into debates on this issue I thought could be fruitful. But there is none so blind as those who will not see. Beating the dead horse with those who instead of worshiping Jesus, they are worshipping Jews. We get the charge as antisemetics. But we aren’t we are just pointing out that those who they worship as God’s Chosen people are anti Christian, anti Gospel, and is not the Israel that is blessed by all, but blown up by all.

Look, there is enough information out there to educate anyone with the desire to know the truth. It will not take a two state solution. But a one state, Israel becoming like any other country, democratic country. Where all the citizens are first rate. Ask any Israeli Arab who has been born in Israel. His or her passport is different from a natural born Israeli Jew.

The Dispensationalist Zionistic Pentecostal brain doesn’t acknowledge this prejudice. Because they see Israel as the same as the one in the Bible.

Imagine a country were blonde hair blue eyed whites were the first class citizens and all others were second class? Insane? Right?

The issue is old my brother. Not 2,000 years or 1,000 years old. But maybe over 70 years old. Sad as it is we can get blood out of a stone. If the people have hearts of stone they can’t or won’t see the truth.

Appreciate you my brother in JESUS NAME

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

When you have seen one Anti-Dispensational video or read one of their books, you've read and watched them all. The arguments are all the same. Dispensationalism is the weakest of all eschatologies. Also, one has to keep in mind that sweet old Sister Pettyjean and Brother Foofoofnick really only know what is "told" them over the pulpit and in "authorized pastor approved" Bible studies. Especially, if the pastor is more versed in Cracker Barrelism than book, chapter, and verse. The saints haven't a clue to the eschatology debate. Hence the reason, when a saint is studying the Bible and eschatology and starts asking the pastor questions while the pastor is scarfing down the fried catfish and corn bread. The offending saint is placed on shut down, has a gag ordered placed on them. Oh, yeah, the pastor might bring the brother or sister into his office, and explain the way of the cheesy corn bake more perfectly, but it usually never ends well.

But, please since you watched this video could you post some of the information you thought we would want to discuss?

Story. Of. My. Life.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You see the contradiction because you aren’t a Pre Trib Post Trib Dispensationalist Christian Zionist. I know, that’s a mouthful. Inconsistency and contradictions abound in their eschatology. If you were to sit down with all the ministers and preachers who hold to Dispensationalism, your take away would be this, they all have different thoughts on the subject. Dispensationalism isn’t just part of our movement religiously. But politically. Religiously it causes some churches like the United Pentecostal Church in Cooper City Florida to allow Rabbis to stand on their platform and speak from their pulpit. Politically they will allow Israeli politicians to do the same. Brother Esaias stated it perfectly. It’s not our problem. It gets to a point where we must knock the dirt from our sandals and move on from the madness. While I can understand your heart that this looks like a great opportunity to remove the scales from their eyes. The sad truth is that their cognitive dissonance has given them ecclesiastical dementia. They see any criticism of modern Israel as blasphemy. It’s not just an eschatological issue but a soteriological issue. The Apostolic Pentecostal pastor who should be the sighted guide in this situation bows before the Christ Hating Rabbi. Making statements as “we worship the same God!” All while the Pentecostal pastor quotes the Shema.
The reality is we don’t worship the same God, we worship Jesus Christ as our Father, King, and Pastor.

There was a time when giving out material, and getting into debates on this issue I thought could be fruitful. But there is none so blind as those who will not see. Beating the dead horse with those who instead of worshiping Jesus, they are worshipping Jews. We get the charge as antisemetics. But we aren’t we are just pointing out that those who they worship as God’s Chosen people are anti Christian, anti Gospel, and is not the Israel that is blessed by all, but blown up by all.

Look, there is enough information out there to educate anyone with the desire to know the truth. It will not take a two state solution. But a one state, Israel becoming like any other country, democratic country. Where all the citizens are first rate. Ask any Israeli Arab who has been born in Israel. His or her passport is different from a natural born Israeli Jew.

The Dispensationalist Zionistic Pentecostal brain doesn’t acknowledge this prejudice. Because they see Israel as the same as the one in the Bible.

Imagine a country were blonde hair blue eyed whites were the first class citizens and all others were second class? Insane? Right?

The issue is old my brother. Not 2,000 years or 1,000 years old. But maybe over 70 years old. Sad as it is we can get blood out of a stone. If the people have hearts of stone they can’t or won’t see the truth.

Appreciate you my brother in JESUS NAME

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Was John speaking specifically of the Jews in particular, those that did not become Jewish Christians converts, as being antichrist?

1 John 2:22-23 KJV
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

If a religion denies that Jesus is the Christ, it is the religion of antichrist. ANYBODY who denies Jesus is the Christ is antichrist.

By the way, all Muslims confess that Jesus is in fact the Christ. All Jews deny that Jesus is the Christ. Something to think about, eh?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Can you still be God‘s chosen people while rejecting His Messiah?

Isn’t that basically where the primary argument is at, when the dust settles

"Chosen people" means chosen by God because of descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 KJV
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. [15] Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

If a Chosenite rebels, and rejects Messiah, they are cut off and de-chosened:

Acts 3:22-23 KJV
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. [23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Romans 2:25 KJV
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Meanwhile, the Israelis never were "chosen" because they are by and large NOT the descendants of Jacob.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Do you think the “West” nations arejudged according to the Covenant of Moses?

My understanding is that when Israel was the people of God, the other nations where judged in part for their own iniquity but a lot because of how they treated the people of God. Lots of that in the prophets.
Now, the nations are also judged and will be judged for their own iniquity in general but a lot by how they treat the scattered people of God (the true church) as well. That idea can also be seen in some of Jesus’s teaching.

Israel has always been the people of God. All those Israelites NOT in Christ are legally classed as heathen or "gentiles". Israel entered the new covenant beginning in the first century. Those who stayed behind were left behind and are no longer citizens.

Deuteronomy 28:45-46 KJV
Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: [46] And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

While China, for example, has its own problems, and while God is Judge of all nations, a specific people group are under a specific cause-effect relationship with God that reflects their conformity to, or deviation from, the Divine Law.

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Ultimately, all nations will be judged based on their response to Christ as demonstrated by their treatment of Christ's brethren, ie Israel.

[Esaias]

How many American churches, Pentecostal, charismatic, Baptist, trinity, oneness, whatever, are all in unison this week about supporting "Israel" because "they are God's special beloved people"?

LOTS.

Why?

Because they are 501c3 corporations created by the state in order to advance "public policy". (Look it up in a law dictionary, it's true.) Therefore they are literally government institutions created for the purpose of propagandizing the citizenry to support whatever the current government policies are. Sometimes pastors get a bit of a conscience and complain about policy (the gay marriage issue etc) but they almost N E V E R actually try to buck the system. Why? Because they are part of it. In bed with the beast as it were.

And it is all made possible via one simple easily fact-checked falsehood: that the people who today call themselves "Jews" are in fact the Israelites that we read about in the Bible.

They are not.

We were warned about satanic imposters pretending to be God's "chosen people" by Jesus Himself TWICE in prophecy:

Revelation 2:8-9 KJV
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; [9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 KJV
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Even if the people claiming to be Jews were in fact Judeans, it wouldn't matter because Judaism is Pharisaism - LITERALLY:

"In King Agrippa (41-44) the Pharisees had a supporter and friend, and with the destruction of the Temple the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees.

Henceforth Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older, priestly tradition (Abot i. 1). Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future. "

From the Jewish Encyclopedia - https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/a...2087-pharisees

Jesus said this about Pharisees and their relationship to God:

Matthew 23:15 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Modern "churches" support the antichrist, because that is public policy and they exist to promote obedience to public policy.

[Esaias]

Now, preach THAT from an American pulpit and suddenly you're on a government watch list and your church is likely to be shut down post haste.