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  #31  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:50 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If God knows you will obey, then it always was certain that you would obey. You, however, cannot be the cause of that certainty, therefore the choice is not your's (one way or the other).

Ie fatalistic determinism, aka five point Calvinism, with no wriggle room or way out of it.
Not sure what you're saying.

God knows if we obey or not. He knows if we choose to obey or not. Simple.
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  #32  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:58 PM
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Not sure what you're saying.

God knows if we obey or not. He knows if we choose to obey or not. Simple.
WHEN did God know our choices? That's the issue.
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  #33  
Old 03-31-2016, 12:57 AM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Re: Question About Predestination

Esaias' posts border along the line of open theism.
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  #34  
Old 03-31-2016, 08:20 AM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Esaias' posts border along the line of open theism.
Please define "open theism".
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  #35  
Old 03-31-2016, 11:04 AM
consapente89 consapente89 is offline
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Please define "open theism".
The future is not fixed. God's actions are fixed and his plan is fixed, but the future is flexible depending on the free will of mankind.
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  #36  
Old 03-31-2016, 11:14 AM
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
Esaias' posts border along the line of open theism.
Label, then discard. Neat, but irrational.
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  #37  
Old 03-31-2016, 12:57 PM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by consapente89 View Post
The future is not fixed. God's actions are fixed and his plan is fixed, but the future is flexible depending on the free will of mankind.
Would that not make God's omniscience moot?
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  #38  
Old 03-31-2016, 01:02 PM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Label, then discard. Neat, but irrational.
You don't write as if you're a believer in that doctrine.
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  #39  
Old 03-31-2016, 01:30 PM
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Re: Question About Predestination

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Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Would that not make God's omniscience moot?
No. God knows everything exactly as it truly is. If the future contains possibilities, then he knows those possibilities as possibilities (rather than certainties), because he cannot be mistaken.
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  #40  
Old 03-31-2016, 02:26 PM
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Re: Question About Predestination

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(Romans 8:28)

The subject is 'we', the predicate is 'know...'etc. We (the apostle and fellow Christians) know something. The object of 'know' is 'that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.' That is what we know, that all things work together for good to a certain class of people.

The class of people for whom all things work together for good is 'them that love God' which is further defined as 'them who are the called'. So the people who love God are the same people who are the called. Everyone classed as 'them that love God' are the same as 'them who are the called'. And thus the two phrases are synonymous. It is not those who fancy they love God, but those who truly and genuinely love God, who are that class of people who are 'the called'.

So who are 'the called'?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30)

He foreknew a certain class of people. These are the 'foreknown'. They are not all mankind, so then the foreknowledge spoken of is not mere awareness of, for God knows all people in that sense. Specifically, the word means 'knew previously'. God previously knew a certain class of people. This class of people were predestinated.

Predestinated means "to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate." The people who were previously known by God were delimited in advance, previously determined, previously ordained. The word essentially means to determine a destiny prior to some certain point of time. The destiny was predetermined for this class of people whom God previously knew.

What is that destiny? 'To be conformed to the image of his Son.' That is, to be made like Christ. To enter the new covenant, to take on the Son of God as their model, their 'rabbi', their teacher. To follow in his footsteps, and to ultimately share in his glory (resurrection). In other words, to become genuine Christians.

Now, this class of people who were previously known, and previously destined, to enter the New Covenant, are also 'called'. Being the called (ie the ones who love God, who enter the New Covenant), they are justified from their sins and declared righteous by God. And being justified they are glorified with Christ (although the glorification has not yet been experienced in full, Paul speaks of it as past tense, a common Jewish manner of speaking, as Aben Ezra says "A thing which is decreed to be is spoken of in the past tense." (in his commentary on Jonah 2:2)

Paul concludes by saying that if these be true, who can be against God's called and chosen? Who can be against us? No power in the world can remove us from God's love and protection. Not even death.

But the question remains - who are the foreknown?

Many people speculate, but the apostle Paul himself, in the same epistle, gives us the answer:

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Romans 11:1-5)

Paul specifically identifies the 'foreknown' as Israelites, of the seed of Abraham, the twelve tribes. "God has not cast away his people which he foreknew" he says. Thus, the apostle defines his own terms, that Israelites are the people whom God foreknew (God knew them previously).

Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
(Amos 3:1-2)

It is the Israelites who were known by God in times past. It is Israel who was destined to become conformed to the image of Christ (and not remain conformed to Moses). Paul says this here:

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Romans 16:25-26)

That Israel should enter the new covenant and be conformed to Christ was the Divine Plan all along, though it was hidden from people's eyes and understanding. It is now made known 'by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God', meaning that the Gospel Message was proclaimed by the prophets in the scriptures in spite of people not recognizing it. Israel was always destined to be conformed to Christ. Christ's coming was the fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In conclusion then, 'foreknown' does not refer to God 'looking forward in time to see who would believe him or love him', and then 'predestinating them to eternal and final salvation', but according to the Bible 'foreknown' has to do with Israel being the people God knew in covenant relationship, and 'predestination' has to do with their previously ordained destiny as a people to be brought into the new covenant through Messiah, justified of their sins, and glorified with Messiah throughout eternity.

Predestination has to do with the national scope of the Divine Plan of God.
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