Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The thought of that just gets you all excited doesn't it

Perhaps. But this leads me to another question. I take it you were once an Apostolic/Oneness Pentecostal. Does that mean you gave up the belief/revelation that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit?

[Walks_in_islam]

You "took it" (that has to be a navy term <snicker>) a few weeks ago that I was a 'baptist' too. Why don't you decide what YOU believe now and share it with who I am positive are a hoard of your breathless fans.

FYI ALL followers of the True God are "oneness" (as you put it) from the time those pesky commandments were handed down (and even before that). Since they are "old testament" please spare me the "they don't apply to me" speech. I am sure that they don't.

So, about that trinity thing, when exactly were the words "three that bear record or witness" ADDED anyway? I meant to ask you then forgot all about you. Did you discover them in bible college? In an original manuscript of holy text or something?

The only Greek manuscripts in any form which support the words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness in earth," are the Montfortianus of Dublin, copied evidently from the modern Latin Vulgate; the Ravianus, copied from the Complutensian Polyglot; a manuscript at Naples, with the words added in the Margin by a recent hand; Ottobonianus, 298, of the fifteenth century, the Greek of which is a mere translation of the accompanying Latin. All the old versions omit the words.

So I guess you have to be careful which "version" of the bible (KJ all the way for you right?) you buy and carry old sport. Grab the wrong one and you're w/o a paddle on your "doctrine" lol

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

Perhaps. But this leads me to another question. I take it you were once an Apostolic/Oneness Pentecostal. Does that mean you gave up the belief/revelation that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit?

[Walks_in_islam]

What belief and what revelation? Yours from bible college? Jesus himself prayed, fasted, and taught others to pray. Jesus never said "I am God". Men did. Jesus did not teach "pray to me". He specifically taught that we are to pray to the One True God. Jesus never ate a bite of pork in his life. It was against the Law of God and Jesus followed that law. Only "paul" and those after him put aside and re-interpreted the teachings of God for their own and like sheep you followed him and his "commentary" on what he thought "christianity" was supposed to be. You are now also arguing against the teachings of Jesus and commandments of God from your own Bible (whichever version) to ME?

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

Perhaps. But this leads me to another question. I take it you were once an Apostolic/Oneness Pentecostal. Does that mean you gave up the belief/revelation that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

What belief and what revelation? Yours from bible college? Jesus himself prayed, fasted, and taught others to pray. Jesus never said "I am God". Men did. Jesus did not teach "pray to me". He specifically taught that we are to pray to the One True God. Jesus never ate a bite of pork in his life. It was against the Law of God and Jesus followed that law. Only "paul" and those after him put aside and re-interpreted the teachings of God for their own and like sheep you followed him and his "commentary" on what he thought "christianity" was supposed to be. You are now also arguing against the teachings of Jesus and commandments of God from your own Bible (whichever version) to ME?

Jesus did not eat Pork because HE was Jewish.

Paul did not reinterpret anything, The bible says in the Old Testament that God would make a NEW covenant with His people, not after the OLD.

Concerning Prayer and what Jesus said

Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Further, if Paul was wrong why did Peter validate Him? He was received by the other Apostles (Acts) and Peter confirmed that Paul was given wisdom from God.

2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

[Praxeas]

BTW why, in your view, did Jesus not rebuke others for calling him God and Lord?

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You "took it" (that has to be a navy term <snicker>) a few weeks ago that I was a 'baptist' too. Why don't you decide what YOU believe now and share it with who I am positive are a hoard of your breathless fans.

The Baptist and Catholic "guesses" were because of you legalistic views. I really did think I read somewhere in regards to you being Baptist. Next guess was Catholic. It's the way you write. That's all.
As to the idea that I "took it," that's probably more a local colloquialism. Kinda the same as a Canadian saying "Eh!" or a Minnesotan saying "Ya. You betcha. Ya. Ya." Nothing more.

FYI ALL followers of the True God are "oneness" (as you put it) from the time those pesky commandments were handed down (and even before that). Since they are "old testament" please spare me the "they don't apply to me" speech. I am sure that they don't.

So, about that trinity thing, when exactly were the words "three that bear record or witness" ADDED anyway? I meant to ask you then forgot all about you. Did you discover them in bible college? In an original manuscript of holy text or something?

The only Greek manuscripts in any form which support the words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness in earth," are the Montfortianus of Dublin, copied evidently from the modern Latin Vulgate; the Ravianus, copied from the Complutensian Polyglot; a manuscript at Naples, with the words added in the Margin by a recent hand; Ottobonianus, 298, of the fifteenth century, the Greek of which is a mere translation of the accompanying Latin. All the old versions omit the words.

So I guess you have to be careful which "version" of the bible (KJ all the way for you right?) you buy and carry old sport. Grab the wrong one and you're w/o a paddle on your "doctrine" lol

As far as anything about The Trinity goes, there are many words we use today which cannot be found in the Bible. Words such as Oneness, Trinity, Bible, Missionary and scores of other words that we use today were not in the original text. I'm sure Islam also has it's words which are not in the Koran, yet taught by the Imams. Yet to question those (e.g. Muhammed's illiteracy would start something more than just a doctrinal statement to be issued by your local Mosque.
I think there are more Oneness followers who are "KJV only" than are Trinitarians. But there is also a beauty in the KJV that others seem to lack. Interestingly, the arguments used by KJV only advocates are the same ones that those who taught from the Vulgate prior to KJV's "acceptance."
The arguments against the Trinity have been brought up by virtually all groups. Your arguments are nothing new.

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Jesus did not eat Pork because HE was Jewish.

Paul did not reinterpret anything, The bible says in the Old Testament that God would make a NEW covenant with His people, not after the OLD.

Concerning Prayer and what Jesus said

Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Further, if Paul was wrong why did Peter validate Him? He was received by the other Apostles (Acts) and Peter confirmed that Paul was given wisdom from God.

2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

While Prax and I may disagree on the issue of the Godhead, he pretty much said it all for me as well.

[Walks_in_islam]

my answer

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Jesus did not eat Pork because HE was Jewish.

And Jewish people did not eat pork because GOD's LAW forbid it so did Jesus not eat pork because "he was jewish" or did Jesus not eat pork because he was following God's law? I will now steal one of capn TP's 'colloquialisms' and add "eh?" (in deference to the Kanooks)

Paul did not reinterpret anything, The bible says in the Old Testament that God would make a NEW covenant with His people, not after the OLD.

Yet in the New Testament when the old laws are referenced "the writers were just quoting old testament teachings" but there is no purpose to those references right?

Concerning Prayer and what Jesus said

Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Joh 14:10 (same discussion) The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds Comment on that part of the discussion or did you leave that out on purpose? Jesus credited God for his very words in that discussion. I apologize to you for accusing you of cutting and pasting bits and pieces of the Quran to make your points. Your selective choices at least appear to be equal opportunity. You do it to the bible as well. At least you are fair about it. I went straight there without being sure but knowing your post was incomplete. You know why? The "Jesus is part of a trinity or part of "God" NEVER fits. There is not one point, place, or statement where Jesus said it and one has to string along different unrelated passages to make the point stick. Giving credit to God, praying to God, and submitting to the will and laws of God is consistant with all parts of the ministry of Jesus.

Further, if Paul was wrong why did Peter validate Him? He was received by the other Apostles (Acts) and Peter confirmed that Paul was given wisdom from God.

There are (2) different versions of (just) Paul's conversion in the same book (Acts). Which is right?

2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.

2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

That pretty much validates my own thoughts on those who follow teachings of Paul. Is Paul the only "apostle" specifically referenced whose words get twisted by ignorant and unstable followers?

[Walks_in_islam]

Muhammed's illiteracy would start something more than just a doctrinal statement to be issued by your local Mosque.

Mohammed's illiteracy is a well-known and accepted historical fact. Mohammed's illiteracy is taught at the local mosque.

But there is also a beauty in the KJV that others seem to lack.

Yeah. Useful margin notes added to the actual text to support a whole doctrine are things of beauty to proponents of that doctrine. What "others seem to lack" in this context is inclusion of notes added to the margins 6 centuries after the original authors died. lol

[Walks_in_islam]

Jesus corrected those and gave credit for his ministry to God on numerous occasions. I have completed your own "cut and paste" for you with an example of this.

Next we will, since you brought up pagan practices, discuss your favorite color and the orgin of "Sun's day", "the cross as a symbol in ancient pagan civilizations", and "the symbolic nature of the 'fish symbol' in christianity. I feel that this is the appropriate time to reply to your nasty comments on the symbols of islam. I just do not have the time this morning.

To help you get started:

As early as the first century, Christians made an acrostic from this word: Iesous Christos Theou Yios Soter, (ICTYS) i.e. Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, using the Greek word for fish "ichthys." The Greek word Ichthus (Iota Chi Theta Upsilon Sigma), pronounced ich-thoos, upper case: and lower case: is the word used throughout the New Testament for the English word fish.

In pagan beliefs, Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia, or Delphine. The word also meant "womb" and "dolphin" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids. The fish is also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus, as well as the tale of the fish of the Nile that swallowed part of Osiris' body (the penis), and was also considered a symbol of the sexuality of Isis for she had sexual intercourse with Osiris after his death which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. So, in pagan beliefs, the fish is a symbol of birth and fertility.

Before Christianity adopted the fish symbol, it was known by pagans as "the Great Mother", and "womb". Its link to fertility, birth, and the natural force of women was acknowledged also by the Celts, as well as pagan cultures throughout northern Europe.

No wonder the "shape of the Kabaa cornerstone" excites you so much Prax...

More to come!!

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW why, in your view, did Jesus not rebuke others for calling him God and Lord?