Original Sin/Ancestral Sin - Page 5

Steve Epley · #41 06-11-2008, 07:56 AM

Okay folks here is the question if infants die sinners how are they saved?

Only faith in Christ blood can make the sinner clean?

Baby has exercised NO faith yet according to you born a sinner then are ALL babies or any babies going to Hell?

I can't see infants as sinners because they have not sin though they have the nature that is disposed to sin and it will given time but sinners at birth?

MissBrattified · #42 06-11-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Okay folks here is the question if infants die sinners how are they saved?

Only faith in Christ blood can make the sinner clean?

Baby has exercised NO faith yet according to you born a sinner then are ALL babies or any babies going to Hell?

I can't see infants as sinners because they have not sin though they have the nature that is disposed to sin and it will given time but sinners at birth?

I believe that although we all possess a sinful nature, we haven't sinned until we have sinned. Simple as that. God holds us accountable for what we have done, NOT the sins of our fathers. Look at this scripture regarding Amaziah:

II Chronicles 25:4 "But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin."

Do you think Amaziah was more merciful than God Himself? I believe God holds us accountable according to what we know, or have been given the opportunity to know, about Him.

I do not believe, for instance, that there are millions of aborted babies in hell, simply because their parents chose to murder them before they had the opportunity to become a Christian. Does Dr. Vaughn or Adino really believe that? Do they really believe God is that kind of God?

Do we believe that people who are mentally challenged and have no ability to become a Christian are going to go to hell? Surely they are born with a sinful nature, just like the rest of us. Or a child that has never heard of anything but Buddha?

Steve Epley · #43 06-11-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I believe that although we all possess a sinful nature, we haven't sinned until we have sinned. Simple as that. God holds us accountable for what we have done, NOT the sins of our fathers. Look at this scripture regarding Amaziah:

II Chronicles 25:4 "But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin."

Do you think Amaziah was more merciful than God Himself? I believe God holds us accountable according to what we know, or have been given the opportunity to know, about Him.

I do not believe, for instance, that there are millions of aborted babies in hell, simply because their parents chose to murder them before they had the opportunity to become a Christian. Does Dr. Vaughn or Adino really believe that? Do they really believe God is that kind of God?

Do we believe that people who are mentally challenged and have no ability to become a Christian are going to go to hell? Surely they are born with a sinful nature, just like the rest of us. Or a child that has never heard of anything but Buddha?

This is the quandry they find themselves in. But to answer they will have them sinners and saints at the same time without any faith or disobedience.

Infants are innocent with a nature that will sin in time.

EVERY man is TEMPTED when he is drawn away of HIS OWN lusts an ENTICED, and when lust is CONCIEVED it brings forth sin.
An infant?

MissBrattified · #44 06-11-2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

This is the quandry they find themselves in. But to answer they will have them sinners and saints at the same time without any faith or disobedience.

Infants are innocent with a nature that will sin in time.

EVERY man is TEMPTED when he is drawn away of HIS OWN lusts an ENTICED, and when lust is CONCIEVED it brings forth sin.
An infant?

Right!!!!

James 1:15 "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

According to Strong's, this scripture could also read,

"...when lust has clasped or seized [us], it produces sin, and sin, when it is completed entirely or consummated, brings forth death."

Sin has to be COMMITTED. The ability to sin doesn't equate sin.

Wow--I started to say that Jesus had the ability to sin as well, (but He did not)--but I forgot, these folks don't believe Jesus had the ability to sin, do they?

Steve Epley · #45 06-11-2008, 08:44 AM

Sinner without committing a sin and righteous without faith!

Adino??????????????????????????????????????

Are ALL babies children of the devil??????????????????????????

Baron1710 · #46 06-11-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Sinner without committing a sin and righteous without faith!

Adino??????????????????????????????????????

Are ALL babies children of the devil??????????????????????????

Bro. E,

Does that mean we are born saved and then loose our salvation at some point?

bishoph · #47 06-11-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I do not believe, for instance, that there are millions of aborted babies in hell, simply because their parents chose to murder them before they had the opportunity to become a Christian. Does Dr. Vaughn or Adino really believe that? Do they really believe God is that kind of God?

Do we believe that people who are mentally challenged and have no ability to become a Christian are going to go to hell? Surely they are born with a sinful nature, just like the rest of us. Or a child that has never heard of anything but Buddha?

While it may be difficult with our human compassion to fully understand, I personally believe the Bible does indicate this.

If we understand and believe in types and shadows, then the flood and subsequent death of all who were not in the ark could give us our first clue. If the ark was a type of the church/bride, (as I have heard it preached and taught for years) and all who did/do not get on/in the ark (the church/bride) was/will be lost, then we see that God did not spare the children/infants. If God could make all of the animals gather to the ark and be saved from destruction, don't you think he could have caused all of the innocent babies to come to the ark? One cannot believe the typology of the ark being the church/bride and being lost if one does not enter in, and then throw out the typology of everyone who does not enter in including innocent children being lost.

Secondly we find the same typology used often for Sodom & Gamorrah. If you won't leave Sodom & Gamorrah (the world/sin) you will be burned in judgment. All who did not flee were judged including innocent children. Again typology does not allow us to "type" the judgment of God on those we feel comfortable in condemning because they were old enough to have made a choice, and yet excusing those that were too young to choose when both were destroyed.

In both of these instances the responsibility of the parents to provide covering and present right standing with God was paramount. I think that this is an area that we often forget......we as parents have a weighty responsibility for the upbringing of our children in the Lord. (When that child can make his/her own choice then we can only pray that we have instilled in them the right principles of the Word and that they will follow them.)

Ultimately the fate of those we feel are innocent (babies, mentally challenged etc) is in the hands of a righteous God.

Steve Epley · #48 06-11-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Bro. E,

Does that mean we are born saved and then loose our salvation at some point?

No I believe babies are born innocent not saved. However I do not think God damns the innocent.

Baron1710 · #49 06-11-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

No I believe babies are born innocent not saved. However I do not think God damns the innocent.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, I think the Bible is sufficiently ambiguous on the subject so I can only go by my own sense of justice.

So then are babies, part of the bride or do they enjoy a different status from those who are saved?

Steve Epley · #50 06-11-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I'm not saying I disagree with you, I think the Bible is sufficiently ambiguous on the subject so I can only go by my own sense of justice.

So then are babies, part of the bride or do they enjoy a different status from those who are saved?

This is an opinion only an opinion no I do not believe they are in the Bride but at judgment since they committed NO sins they are found innocent and given eternal life. Again only an opinion.