Jesus would stone homosexuals News Story

[Sean]

There are other areas where Jesus broke the Torah(Law) also.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Sean

There are other areas where Jesus broke the Torah(Law) also.

This is an erroneous assumption, Jesus never once broke the Torah, that would have been sin, and Jesus never once sinned.

There were times when Jesus disregarded the traditions of the elders but he never once broke the Torah.

[Sean]

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.


This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Sean

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.


This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

Interesting. He did claim that God was his Father. The jews clearly understood that. They also appear to have understood that he broke the sabbath. (Of course the laws pertaining sabbath keeping were more traditions than written down laws in the bible. So maybe johns understanding of the sabbath was more related to the traditions regarding it than the actual biblical mandates around it). I can see either way. I don't think that passage is enough to say Jesus broke the law of moses.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Sean

John 5:18...Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


John, the author, said Jesus "had broken" the sabbath.


This is just one of several times this occurred.

I used to teach that Jesus was the perfect "law keeper", but I was wrong. He came to end the old covenant and introduce the new covenant.

I think Jesus' statement here says the opposite.
Matt 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

About the accusation levied against Him in John 5:19, the context shows the Pharisees were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath based on their own understanding/tradition of Sabbath keeping, not necessarily that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath.

Notice below:

John 5
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. (Jesus had just healed the bed-ridden man at the pool of Bethesda)
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Luke 13
10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 1
2 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.”
13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”
17 When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Luke 12
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I think Jesus' statement here says the opposite.
Matt 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Fulfill means to "finish" ful·fill
fo͝olˈfil/Submit
verb
1.
bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
"he wouldn't be able to fulfill his ambition to visit Naples"
synonyms: achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy


18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


They were completed or "accomplished" when Jesus said.."it is finished"


19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


He is speaking of in Matt. 5, the teachings of HIS commandments, or "the NEW COVENANT" he was introducing, this teaching would eventually "abolish" the Law to the believer. But would not be in effect until years later at Pentecost.



About the accusation levied against Him in John 5:19, the context shows the Pharisees were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath based on their own understanding/tradition of Sabbath keeping, not necessarily that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath.


These were not "accusations" as you assume, John(the author) himself said... "Jesus broke the sabbath", and to top that, Jesus said it was his Father that put him up to it(instigated it)...5:17-21


Notice below:

John 5
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. (Jesus had just healed the bed-ridden man at the pool of Bethesda)
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


They knew he specifically "picked a fight" with them, when he told the man to pick up his bed and walk. This was FORBIDDEN on the Sabbath Day(carrying the bed)
Exodus 20 says....
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do (ANY) work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

This was not really about the "healing" part, it was about telling the man to carry his bed through town, which was big time WORK...
They thought, "what in the world is this guy doing, carrying his bed through town, they asked the guy ,,,"who told you to do that", and he said "the guy that healed me"...Matt 5;8-12

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?




Luke 13
10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 1
2 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.”
13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”
17 When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Luke 12
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

Amen, Jesus "disregarded" Exodus 20 and its consequences of disobeying the Law of keeping the sabbath on a regular basis.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Sean

Amen, Jesus "disregarded" Exodus 20 and its consequences of disobeying the Law of keeping the sabbath on a regular basis.

Ummm Jesus actually pointed out the jews hypocrisy over that law. He said they would help goats and cows that fall in a ditch but wouldn't help another man that was basically in the same shape.

Why would the jews help goats and cows in that way? Because it was lawful for them to. The jews just added unlawful requirements to keeping the sabbath and jesus did break those.

[Sean]

Bro. look what I said, it was about "picking up his bed" that caused the problem. They "had" Jesus boxed in on that one and he did not defend it. He just said his Father tells him to do these things, putting the blame on his Father. That is why I posted that last post the way I did. Just read it carefully and you will see specifically what happened there.

Brother, "healing" on the sabbath was not even the thought here. If Jesus would not have wanted to make a scene, he should have told him to get his bed tomorrow. This passage was all about doing (physical work) on the sabbath, not healing the man. If the man was allowed to carry his bed, what would stop EVERYONE from doing some type of physical labor and wrecking the very intent of Exodus 10. Jesus was undermining the Torah and John said he did in fact "brake the sabbath" in verse 18.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Sean

Bro. look what I said, it was about "picking up his bed" that caused the problem. They "had" Jesus boxed in on that one and he did not defend it. He just said his Father tells him to do these things, putting the blame on his Father. That is why I posted that last post the way I did. Just read it carefully and you will see specifically what happened there.

Brother, "healing" on the sabbath was not even the thought here. If Jesus would not have wanted to make a scene, he should have told him to get his bed tomorrow. This passage was all about doing (physical work) on the sabbath, not healing the man. If the man was allowed to carry his bed, what would stop EVERYONE from doing some type of physical labor and wrecking the very intent of Exodus 10. Jesus was undermining the Torah and John said he did in fact "brake the sabbath" in verse 18.

The breaking the sabbath quote is easily defeated as I've already shown. The having him take up his bed is more interesting. I'm not sure it biblically qualified as work though.

[Sean]

10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
This is not the issue???

If you were one of the pharisees of that moment, Im sure you would have reminded them that carrying his bed wasnt work(only hard, all day work is work), even though Exodus says not to do "ANY" work(and a man was ordered by God to be stoned to death under disobedience just for picking up sticks on the sabbath). If you look real hard, you will find out the issue ,in the mind of the pharisees, was about the above thread. And John qualifies it by saying Jesus BRAKE the sabbath.

VS 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

If you dont believe it is work, try carrying a baby crib mattress and blankets half way across town and see what you think.