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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1  
Old 07-10-2022, 08:55 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Correction I taught 2 Corinthians 8&9, but same principle
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2022, 09:44 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Correction I taught 2 Corinthians 8&9, but same principle
I appreciate your attitude. You really seem to be honestly seeking the truth.

But . . .

In the 2Corinthians 8&9 we find this little gem in relation to tithing, or not.

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Once again, pretty much the opposite of any tithing doctrine I’ve heard from nearly any pastor.

Thanks. I look forward to your comments and a good discussion.
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  #3  
Old 07-14-2022, 10:25 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Good Samaritan,

You really should study what Paul really taught. Actions speak louder than words. But he taught that leadership should support the church, and not necessarily the other way around. An example that you have cited, (him robbing other churches so that he could preach the gospel to this particular church for free) is not really describing a pastor/church relationship as we know it. It is more of an evangelist relationship or a missionary relationship. Wouldn’t you agree?

For a much better example of an elder relationship towards the church, we should study the following passage . . .

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

Please study this passage. He taught them by example, to support the weak in the church. He supported himself AND those with him with his very hands. (Manual labor by definition). I realize this is not popular with pastors, who have come up with their own versions of justifying what they prefer to believe. But I implore you to study and understand what the scripture actually says about the subject.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes it’s the best way to learn.
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2022, 11:11 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Good Samaritan,

You really should study what Paul really taught. Actions speak louder than words. But he taught that leadership should support the church, and not necessarily the other way around. An example that you have cited, (him robbing other churches so that he could preach the gospel to this particular church for free) is not really describing a pastor/church relationship as we know it. It is more of an evangelist relationship or a missionary relationship. Wouldn’t you agree?

For a much better example of an elder relationship towards the church, we should study the following passage . . .

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

Please study this passage. He taught them by example, to support the weak in the church. He supported himself AND those with him with his very hands. (Manual labor by definition). I realize this is not popular with pastors, who have come up with their own versions of justifying what they prefer to believe. But I implore you to study and understand what the scripture actually says about the subject.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes it’s the best way to learn.
The strong should care for the weak I agree.
All men should be responsible for working for their family and others in need I agree.
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2022, 11:16 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
The strong should care for the weak I agree.
All men should be responsible for working for their family and others in need I agree.
Thank you.

Do you agree that Paul taught these men that they should support themselves?

And the church?

With their own hands?

Edit:Which is about as opposite of taking tithes from the church as it could possibly be (just to be clear).

Last edited by Tithesmeister; 07-14-2022 at 11:26 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2022, 04:58 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Thank you.

Do you agree that Paul taught these men that they should support themselves?

And the church?

With their own hands?

Edit:Which is about as opposite of taking tithes from the church as it could possibly be (just to be clear).
I believe everyone in Gods kingdom will do whatever is necessary to further the kingdom. If a person is pastoring they are probably working with their hands. Most pastors that I know have supported themselves by having their own jobs. There maybe some Bible college grads who have landed some big church, but I am sure even those pastors earn whatever is arranged caring for that assembly.
There are also cases where aged men who have invested years to grow a local church and now reap from the years of sowing. Are you suggesting that churches should not give at all to their pastors?
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2022, 07:48 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I believe everyone in Gods kingdom will do whatever is necessary to further the kingdom. If a person is pastoring they are probably working with their hands. Most pastors that I know have supported themselves by having their own jobs. There maybe some Bible college grads who have landed some big church, but I am sure even those pastors earn whatever is arranged caring for that assembly.
There are also cases where aged men who have invested years to grow a local church and now reap from the years of sowing. Are you suggesting that churches should not give at all to their pastors?
There are also cases where the pastor is given ALL of the tithes.

There are also cases where the pastor will tell his church that it is impossible to be saved if you don’t tithe.

Don’t doubt me.

Brother,
Do a search on YT for Greg Riggen- God’s holy tithe. Listen to the doctrine of the (then) pastor in the UPCI and the district superintendent of Kansas. It’s about two hours looong. (Just warning you).

There are so many lies about the tithe. You have to wonder at some point- why.
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  #8  
Old 07-17-2022, 08:59 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Good Samaritan,

You really should study what Paul really taught. Actions speak louder than words. But he taught that leadership should support the church, and not necessarily the other way around. An example that you have cited, (him robbing other churches so that he could preach the gospel to this particular church for free) is not really describing a pastor/church relationship as we know it. It is more of an evangelist relationship or a missionary relationship. Wouldn’t you agree?

For a much better example of an elder relationship towards the church, we should study the following passage . . .

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

Please study this passage. He taught them by example, to support the weak in the church. He supported himself AND those with him with his very hands. (Manual labor by definition). I realize this is not popular with pastors, who have come up with their own versions of justifying what they prefer to believe. But I implore you to study and understand what the scripture actually says about the subject.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes it’s the best way to learn.
1 Cor 9 speaks about the believer supporting the minister who ministers to the believer. Paul allowed himself to forego that due to the carnality of believers who balked at supporting the ministry to their own shame. But that's the clear context of 1 Cor 9.
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2022, 11:08 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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1 Cor 9 speaks about the believer supporting the minister who ministers to the believer. Paul allowed himself to forego that due to the carnality of believers who balked at supporting the ministry to their own shame. But that's the clear context of 1 Cor 9.
Once again. The ninth chapter of 1 Corinthians is not about tithes. Nor is it about pastors. Paul was asserting that it was his right as an APOSTLE to have food and drink provided to them.

He clearly taught elders to support the church (not that the church should support them).

Do you admit that this is true?

Once again, in the scripture that I posted, that you responded to above, did Paul clearly instruct the elders to work with their hands and support the church?

Yes?

No?
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  #10  
Old 07-24-2022, 08:11 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Once again. The ninth chapter of 1 Corinthians is not about tithes. Nor is it about pastors. Paul was asserting that it was his right as an APOSTLE to have food and drink provided to them.

He clearly taught elders to support the church (not that the church should support them).

Do you admit that this is true?

Once again, in the scripture that I posted, that you responded to above, did Paul clearly instruct the elders to work with their hands and support the church?

Yes?

No?
Just a reminder to Brother Blume and Good Samaritan. There is a question in this post that I don’t believe either of you answered.

Once again,

Did Paul teach the elders in plain language to work with their hands and support the weak in the church?

Yes?

No?

Please respond.
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