Are we are under the commands of the first 5 books

[good samaritan]

I feel this is the consistent teaching of the NT. The Mosaic Law is done away with in Jesus Christ. What we have is the Spirit of God and not just rules. The rules were righteous in the context they were given. Hence how glorious that it would cause Moses' face to shine, but Jesus made atonement for sins and opened the door to the baptism of the Holy Ghost and that is much more glorious. The letter is bondage and condemnation, which that is why we no longer must obey Sabbaths and feast days. The Spirit gives us life. The Spirit leads us and guides us in all truth.

The Old Testament points us to Christ and teaches eternal and moral principles, but we no longer are under the letter. We now must be led by the spirit.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I don’t believe I’ve ever heard this interpretation taught in the context of whether, or to what extent we are to observe the law.

Actually, you have. Right here: -----> http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=54583

Here it is again:

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:3-18)

V. 3 identifies the Christians as epistles of Christ written by the Spirit on the heart, just like here:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:33)

And here:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(Eze 36:26-27)

V. 6 Is about the superiority of the new covenant over the old, as here:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:3-9)

V. 7 speaks of the glory of God revealed to Moses during his time in the mountain when he received the divine law of God to give to the people. The glory was so great that the people, as usual, couldn't handle it. Just as they couldn't handle hearing the voice of God speaking, and so asked Moses to go up and speak with God for them, they couldn't stand to see the glory of God that reflected in Moses' face. So he had to put a vail over his face to cover up the glory. This shows that while people are without Christ, but merely in an old covenant relationship with God, based upon the mere letter of the law written on tables of stone, and NOT having been circumcised in heart and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, the glory of God is vailed and hidden from them. This old covenant glory (the glory of God reflected in the old covenant) was to be done away with (as per Jeremiah previously quoted) to make way for the new covenant.

V.8 is saying the new covenant glory (the glory of God shining in and through Christ) is better and more glorious than the old.

V.9 is saying the old covenant was a ministration of condemnation, it could only identify sin and condemn it, it could not produce righteousness in the heart, meaning it could not in itself cause people to be righteous and cause them to be like God. This of course is exactly what Jeremiah and Ezekiel were talking about, and which Paul reaffirmed in Romans 8 (see above).

V. 10-11 are saying the glory of the old covenant as awesome as it was has no comparison to the glory of the new, which is the ministration of righteousness (according to verse 9). That is, the old covenant has no grounds for boasting because it could not produce righteousness, whereas the new covenant DOES have the ground for boasting because it DOES produce righteousness. Again, see Romans 8.

V. 12-13 shows that Gospel preaching is the undiluted testimony of the unvailed glory of God revealed in Christ, and is NOT like the enactment of the old covenant which required a vail over Moses' face.

V. 14 points out the people were blinded (actually, per the Greek, "hardened") at Sinai. As proven by their repeated apostasies during the time in the wilderness, as mentioned here:

Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
(Psa 95:8-11)

V. 14-15 further states that this hardness of heart continues even up to Paul's time. That is, the Jews were generally hard hearted and "uncircumcised in heart" not only at Sinai and in the wilderness, but all through their history up to Paul's day. They read the old covenant scriptures and their hardened hearts prevent them from seeing the glory of God, that is, they remain uncircumcised in heart and void of true understanding. BUT that blindness or hardness is taken away in Christ, that is, by hearing and believing in Christ and entering the new covenant and being regenerated the hardness of heart is removed and one is no longer blind to the glory of God revealed in Christ.

V. 16-18 declares that when the heart turns to Christ the vail is taken away, that is, the hardness of the heart or the blindness toward God is removed, by the Spirit, so that Christians perceive the true goodness of God and all His moral perfections in an experiential life changing way.

This exact same dichotomy between unregenerate Judean and regenerated (even gentile) Christian is expressed by Paul in Romans 2:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
(Rom 2:14-15)

And again:

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Rom 2:26-29)

Paul's argument in 2 Cor 3 is the superiority of the new covenant in Christ compared to the inferiority of the old covenant in Moses, due to the lack of moral and spiritual change wrought in the hearts of men by the latter and the evident proven moral and spiritual change wrought in the hearts of men by the former. The old covenant could not produce righteousness because it's adherents were not regenerated, but were instead hard-hearted and "blinded" to the glory of God. The new covenant however is able to produce righteousness because the new covenant effects actual regeneration in the hearts of men and women. The fact the abridged passage was brought up in a thread discussing the ten commandments suggests perhaps that some might take Paul's words about the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant to mean that as Christians we are no longer under any moral obligation to obey God's commandments. Nothing could be further from the truth, however. Paul repeatedly explains the old covenant is inferior precisely because it does not produce sincere obedience to God from the heart, whereas the new covenant actually does through regeneration by the Spirit of Christ. The issue is not about the moral commandments of God and our moral obligations to God, but about which covenant is able to secure God-manifestation in human nature. Christ is God manifest in the flesh. We are to be conformed to His image and likeness. Which means we are to manifest God in our flesh as well. That is to say, our lives are to reflect the spiritual, moral, and ethical character and nature of God. He is our Father, we are His children, therefore we are to be made "in His image, after His likeness". We are to be little versions of Him, if you will. This means our lives are to be conformed to His will, which is expressed through His commandments, His Word. This will only occur by being born again, regenerated by His Spirit, so that Christ is FORMED IN US. So that we can say it is not we who live, but Christ Who lives through us.

[Esaias]

And also from that same thread:

It should also be pointed out that Moses did not put a vail over his face because HE had some kind of problem. Rather, he put the vail on when he spoke to the people of Israel. But when he went to speak with the Lord, he took the vail off:

And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai. And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
(Exo 34:29-35)

The vail was a barrier not between Moses and God, but between Moses and the people. So Paul's argument has to do with the PEOPLE being blinded when they "hear" from Moses. Not because of any fault with Moses, but because of themselves.

When Paul says "nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away", he is referencing when Moses went in to speak to the Lord "face to face" without any vail. So that Paul is saying the unbelieving Jews are like the Israelites in the wilderness - they only deal with God through Moses behind a vail, hiding the display of God's goodness. But if they will turn to the Lord, as Moses did, and enter the holy place, the vail will be removed and they will encounter God just as Moses did, with no intermeddling vail hiding the glory of God.

As expressed also by Paul here:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
(Heb 10:14-23)

So, again, the problem wasn't with Moses, but with the people. Just as Paul explains the problem with the old covenant wasn't with the old covenant in and of itself, but with the PEOPLE:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:3)

The weakness of the law was not in it's own self, but in the flesh of the people exposed to it. The law could not produce righteousness because the PEOPLE were hardened (blinded) in their hearts. The new covenant however overcomes that problem of our flesh via the cross and Spirit regeneration:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:4)

[Esaias]

Then there's an even earlier conversation we both had on the topic: ----> http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=239

From that thread:

The "end" does not mean "abolishing", it means the purpose or intent. If Christ is the abolishing of the commandment, then Christ is the abolishing of moral obligation. Which means Christ came to eliminate the moral laws that generate obligation. Which means Christ came so that people no longer have to keep the Sabbath, or do anything else stated in the Ten Commandments.

From the very passage you cite in 2 Cor 3:

3 forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Which refers back to these passages:

Ezek 11:

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

And Ezek 36:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Paul is speaking of that which is written on tables of stone vs that which is written on the heart by the Spirit, which hearkens to this:

Jer 31

33 but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Paul goes on to talk about "the ministration death" which was "written and engraven on stones", and contrasts that with "the ministration of the Spirit" which corresponds with that which was "written in the hearts" or "tables of flesh". Clearly, that which was written on stones refers to the old covenant ("Moses"), and the contrast is with the new covenant work of the Spirit, which writes something in the heart. What is written in the heart, according to the Scriptures? The laws, statutes, and judgments of God.

The law of God was given through Moses and written on stone tables, but through Christ (who is that Spirit) the law of God is written on fleshy tables of the heart. The former did not produce obedience, but the latter does. Therefore Paul calls that latter, new covenant ministration of the Spirit "the ministration of righteousness".

The latter ministration excels in glory because it succeeds where the former did not (see Romans 8:1-10).

In no case is Paul trying to tell people "Therefore you don't have to obey the commandments of God."

[Esaias]

So, I am not sure why you are saying you have never heard it explained etc when you clearly already have, in at the very least two separate discussions.

Unless maybe you weren't paying any attention to what was being said? And so completely forgot that the very thing you are so curious about had already been presented to you?

Is that what happened? Just totally slipped your mind? Not even a "I remember sometime someone said something about it, but can't recall the details, could someone refresh my memory for me?"

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I feel this is the consistent teaching of the NT.

I honestly don't think you understand what "consistent" actually means.

[good samaritan]

The law from Sinai is bondage

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Galatians 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

We are not supposed to go back to living under the laws of Moses

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Sin exists outside of Mosaic law. We are still to be righteous, but we have found the way to achieve righteousness.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

“Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.”
....Romans‬ ..5‬:..13‬ ..NLT‬‬


Galatians 2:
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Sounds consistent to me?

[good samaritan]

Galatians 5:13-14
13......For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14......For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[coksiw]

Good Samaritan,
You have to embrace the tension in the Bible, instead of trying to solve it favoring your predisposition.

We are not negating that the Law of Moses can’t impute righteousness because it is impossible for men to never fail one of them, and the sacrifices of animals can’t forgive sins to give you entrance into everlasting life. As a mechanism to get you saved is destined to fail, and it is an impossible yoke, because it was meant to be a mechanism revelatory of sin, however, at the same time, it serves as a reflection of God’s will regarding what righteousness and holiness looks like, and therefore, we should pursue its obedience by the grace of God. We are not negating that circumcision is not yet another step necessary to be saved either (saved as in being accepted into in the people of God who are heirs of the promise).

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Good Samaritan,
You have to embrace the tension in the Bible, instead of trying to solve it favoring your predisposition.

I Dont even know what you mean by this? Are you saying that the scripture is warring against itself. Tension? I posted scriptures exactly as they read. If you want to break those scriptures down then be my guest.

We are not negating that the Law of Moses can’t impute righteousness because it is impossible for men to never fail one of them, and the sacrifices of animals can’t forgive sins to give you entrance into everlasting life

It goes farther than that, the law was given to Israel to condemn men of their sins and to point them to Christ. It was not designed for us, especially gentile believers to continue in Mosaic laws.

Acts 15:23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Acts 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

As a mechanism to get you saved is destined to fail, and it is an impossible yoke, because it was meant to be a mechanism revelatory of sin, however, at the same time, it serves as a reflection of God’s will regarding what righteousness and holiness looks like, and therefore, we should pursue its obedience by the grace of God.

Where is this teaching spelled out in the scripture? I haven't read this verse. The law was our schoolmaster to Lead us to Christ. Now we are no longer under a shoolmaster. We have graduated to the next level of righteousness if you are in Christ.

I am not debating immorality, I am talking about teaching/preaching the necessity of observing feast days, Sabbaths, dietary laws, etc... Either you still believe we are under that yoke or you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

We are not negating that circumcision is not yet another step necessary to be saved either (saved as in being accepted into in the people of God who are heirs of the promise).

Why not? If we are to keep the partial law we are to keep the whole law.

Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

You cannot pick this law as a forever law and that one as a fulfilled one. Christ fulfilled the whole law. That doesn't mean we no longer have any moral obligations.

Galatians 5:18-23
18......But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19......Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20......Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21......Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22......But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23......Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The righteousness of the mosaic law exist now in the believers heart and we are gonna be held accountable at whole new level. We are judged by our hearts.

Hebrews 12:14-15
14......Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15......Looking diligently lest any man fail a whole new level.