*** Why am I suspecting some here believe in re-incarnation? ****
Maestro,
Baptism is necessary for obedience .... it is a command of Jesus Christ ... and to be practiced by genuine believers during their intial walk w/ Jesus Christ. All of His commands are to be obeyed. Yet does loving my neighbor cause my New Birth? Does obeying the ordinance of communion remit my sin?
Daniel,
No, loving your neighbor does not cause your new birth. However, refusing to love your neighbor could bring the judgment of God upon you.
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In baptism, we identify ourselves w/ the Work of the Lamb and profess our faith as disciples of Jesus Christ.
No sir ... I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....
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1. The Lord's Supper
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????
No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.
I agree with the symbolic identification with Jesus Christ through water baptism and communion. Both are New Testament sacraments given by the Lord that correlate with Old Testament sacraments of circumcision and Passover.
However, I note that baptism and communion are not empty symbols. In baptism, there is no power in the act or water itself. Likewise in communion there is no transubstantiation. However, both these sacraments require faith, and in that there is power. Thus, baptism has no power simply in the act, but neither is it simply an empty, symbolic gesture with no power. Since it relates to something that Jesus accomlished on our behalf, it is a real symbol, filled with power and meaning only when faith is present. Therefore, it is a token of the covenant, but not an empty token simply done through obedience. It has power through faith in the work of Jesus Christ.
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Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power of His Spirit living through us.
I agree. However, as stated above, I think baptism is more than an empty symbol, but it is a real symbol, having true meaning and power, being tied to the work of Jesus Christ through faith.
Just my thougths for your consideration. God bless.
Daniel,
No, loving your neighbor does not cause your new birth. However, refusing to love your neighbor could bring the judgment of God upon you.
I agree with the symbolic identification with Jesus Christ through water baptism and communion. Both are New Testament sacraments given by the Lord that correlate with Old Testament sacraments of circumcision and Passover.
However, I note that baptism and communion are not empty symbols. In baptism, there is no power in the act or water itself. Likewise in communion there is no transubstantiation. However, both these sacraments require faith, and in that there is power. Thus, baptism has no power simply in the act, but neither is it simply an empty, symbolic gesture with no power. Since it relates to something that Jesus accomlished on our behalf, it is a real symbol, filled with power and meaning only when faith is present. Therefore, it is a token of the covenant, but not an empty token simply done through obedience. It has power through faith in the work of Jesus Christ.
I agree. However, as stated above, I think baptism is more than an empty symbol, but it is a real symbol, having true meaning and power, being tied to the work of Jesus Christ through faith.
Just my thougths for your consideration. God bless.
I would agree that it is not an empty symbol ... what could be more wonderful than obeying this real ordinance filled with real symbolic power and meaning only when GENUINE faith is present.
However, do you believe that it's power lies in our sins being washed away because it is properly administered?
Does it cause our New Birth?
I agree that sustained, willful disobedience of any of God's commands can result in judgment.
1. He didn't continue because he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and was repentant of his deeds.
2. I will baptize someone who has professed faith in Jesus Christ and has repented in response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ .. do I know if they have done so genuinely ... I can't peek in people's hearts anymore because I left witchcraft years ago.
3. Ananias baptized Paul because Paul was repentant. This however does not address your conclusion or assertion that our sins our remitted/washed away/blotted/ at baptism.
A person who has genuinely placed their faith and has repented will be baptized ... necessarily ...
Daniel,
Here's the facts. Paul had repented, (see your answer #3 above), prayed and fasted 3 days consecutively.
Yet, through this 3 days of repentance, prayer and fasting, Paul's sins were still counted against HIM! His sins hadn't been remitted after repentance.
For this reason, under divine mandate of God, Ananias commanded Paul to be baptized, and wash away his sins. (well there's goes the sinner's death-bed prayer out the window)
The blood is shed for "remission of sins", and baptism is "for the remission of sins." It's a fact, the act of baptism is where sin remitting blood of Jesus is spiritually contacted!
I would agree that it is not an empty symbol ... what could be more wonderful than obeying this real ordinance filled with real symbolic power and meaning only when GENUINE faith is present.
However, do you believe that it's power lies in our sins being washed away because it is properly administered?
Does it cause our New Birth?
Abraham's faith was reckoned for righteousness when he was yet uncircumcised:
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Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. Rom 4:10How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision; that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;
But the symbol of his faith was made manifest through circumcision. The question is, what would have been the covenantal status of Abraham had he refused God's symbol of circumcision? It was Abraham's initial faith that reckoned or accounted him righteous, but it appears circumcision was a symbolic token of the covenant between Abraham and God.
Was Abraham's reckoned righteousness different from the covenant?
Would he have remained in covenant even if he refused the symbol?
I believe the power of water baptism lies in its confirmation of the covenantal status of the believer. I look forward to your reply.
Here's the facts. Paul had repented, (see your answer #3 above), prayed and fasted 3 days consecutively.
Yet, through this 3 days of repentance, prayer and fasting, Paul's sins were still counted against HIM! His sins hadn't been remitted after repentance.
For this reason, under divine mandate of God, Ananias commanded Paul to be baptized, and wash away his sins. (well there's goes the sinner's death-bed prayer out the window)
The blood is shed for "remission of sins", and baptism is "for the remission of sins." It's a fact, the act of baptism is where sin remitting blood of Jesus is spiritually contacted!
Where does it say His sins weren't remitted? Ananias was referring to the ritual act of Old Covenant Immersion (Mikveh).
Do yourself a favor and google Mikveh. You might learn something. Study the purpose of baptism. These men were jews, they weren't living in 2008 Christianity. They were JEWS!!! Even after conversion, Paul rebaptized again before he went into the Temple. HE still followed his traditions although he didn't impose them on others.
Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Where does it say His sins weren't remitted? Ananias was referring to the ritual act of Old Covenant Immersion (Mikveh).
Do yourself a favor and google Mikveh. You might learn something. Study the purpose of baptism. These men were jews, they weren't living in 2008 Christianity. They were JEWS!!! Even after conversion, Paul rebaptized again before he went into the Temple. HE still followed his traditions although he didn't impose them on others.
Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
StaySharp,
I respectfully say you haven't made sense through out all your posts on this subject. Also, you refer to scriptures that identify with other situations that aren't even being discussed.
what about repentance? Is that necessary to be saved and is it a re-enactment of his death?
I believe repentance is allowing the work of the Holy Spirit to work in us ... to change our direction and heart .... this comes through faith and is granted by His grace.
Praxeas ... the question here is ... whether there is a difference between fleshly works and works of the Holy Spirit ... and is it our work that merits and causes salvation or whether it His Spirit alive in us that produces works to meet repentance?
Baptism is a product of a repentantant faith filled heart .... as is obedience to all His commands
... it is also a result of a life heart quickened to life by the power of the Holy Spirt ... through our New Birth that comes from above.
It is His obedience ... His righteous imputed upon us that makes this not available but possible.
Another question is whether repentance is something we add to our faith ... or is a result of the New Birth ... a result of regenerative grace?
In Acts 2 we find the Holy Spirit and the Word pricking the hearts of the listeners and they in submission ... leaving their works to be saved and allowing God to save them through the Annointed One who provided salvation.
John Hendryx, tells us:
Therefore, repentance is not something that the sinner is adding in addition to faith as a work, but both repentance and faith are seen as the infallible result of the new birth that is applied to sinners by the Holy Spirit. A biblical understanding sees faith and repentance not as something we create or perform or supply, apart from regenerative grace.
The unregenerate are truly incapable of creating a right thought, generating a right affection, or originating a right volition, so God, in His mercy, gives to His people freely, that which He demands from us. God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37) draws His chosen ones to repentance and faith in Christ. The gospel confesses, "We love Him because He first loved us."
When admonishing us to teach the gospel to unbelievers the Scripture says do so, "with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God maygrant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth." (emphasis mine). It couldn't be more clear that the apostles viewed repentance as something God enables us to do, since the unsaved are being held captive by the devil to do his will and unable and unwilling to loose their chains on their own.
Another writer states:
I affirm, with Peter, that where there is no repentance there is no salvation.
The concept of believing oneself to be a murderer of the author of life, and yet still feel no shame at such a dispicable act, is absurd. I further argue that repentance is no more a fleshly work than spiritual living is a spiritual work.
Repentance, says the apostle, is granted from God as a gift to men (see 2 Timothy 2:25).
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25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
We may no more boast about such a gift than we may boast about faith itself.
Both are God's gracious gifts to men. If repentance be a work, then faith be a work, and if faith be a work, then I am theologically skewered.
Now that I have dealt with that, I feel better about telling the first promise attached to repentace: the blotting out of our sins.
What a wonderful promise (and reality it is)! If only we could feel the weight of our wickedness for a moment, then we would be inclined to throw it off immediately! May God, in His mercy, grant us to see the depth of our sin that we may know the greatness of His grace.
The second promise of repentance is that we will be refreshed from the Lord. Specifically, Peter teaches that this refreshing comes from the presence of the Lord. Since I believe "the Lord" refers to Jesus, I can only imagine that Peter means the refreshment sent will be our Wonderful Comforter, the Holy Spirit Himself. At the cross, the Lord Jesus paid for our sins, at regeneration the Spirit washes us clean. The Spirit is the agent of our cleansing, as I understand it. He applies what our Savior bought for us.
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