Identity Crisis in the Local Church

[MrsMcD]

Originally Posted by Chan

Very often when a new convert comes out of, say, Roman Catholicism or one of those liturgical Protestant churches, one of the things on his mind is exactly what the organization where he found Christ believes.

I was referring to standards above. As far as the biblical doctrine, I would care. That would be the first thing I would want to know.

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I too always enjoy discussions with folks who "get it" and are not offended because they think I am slamming them or their belief.

Ok...

There is nothing wrong with religious culture. Absolutely nothing, when it is recognized as such.

The problem is when the culture is related to salvation, spirituality, or a personal relationship with Jesus by leadership that would impose cultural elements for purposes of sustaining and perpetuating the religious society/group/movement.

I have been around long enough to experience several issues being invented and annointed literally at the drop of a hat, under that guise of "sovereign revelation" that have absolutely NOTHING to do with scripture, but are adopted by the constituency as something that will create or enhance a setting wherein God can move, at the behest of the spiritual leader.

Again, there is nothing wrong with religious culture, it is healthy in fact, but only if it is recognized as such.

Salvational issues and scripture cannot be that fickle as some would like to make it by infusing cultural aspects...like somehow shoving straw into your biceps then stepping back and saying to the ant, (flexing) look how strong I am!

It's the difference between the application of biblical principle and the creation of man-made "standards" in knee-jerk reaction to what's going on in the secular world around us.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Chan

It's the difference between the application of biblical principle and the creation of man-made "standards" in knee-jerk reaction to what's going on in the secular world around us.

Maybe, but I don't like to use the words "man-made standards" because it makes those who understand what standards really are, sound bitter.

Standards are not created by man. Man is falible, standards are not. Therefore, you are giving significance to somewhat of a non-sequitor.

I choose to call them rather, religious cultural elements because they mimic catholic rites that have been cannonized as spiritual and biblical tennants.

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Maybe, but I don't like to use the words "man-made standards" because it makes those who understand what standards really are, sound bitter.

When I use the term "man-made standards," I'm making a distinction between standards that are based on a clear passage of scripture or, at the very least, a clear biblical principle, and standards that have no basis in scripture - either in passage or in principle. For example, modesty is a biblical principle and women not wearing what pertains to a man is scripture (what exactly it means is a matter of debate); but men not being allowed to wear facial hair not only has no biblical principle to support it, there's a passage of scripture that at least appears to directly refute the standard.

Standards are not created by man. Man is falible, standards are not. Therefore, you are giving significance to somewhat of a non-sequitor.

Standards ARE created by man - whether as interpretations of scripture passages or biblical principles or entirely without scriptural basis.

I choose to call them rather, religious cultural elements because they mimic catholic rites that have been cannonized as spiritual and biblical tennants.

I prefer to think of those standards that are actually based on scripture to be applications of the scripture (whether one agrees with the specific application is subject to debate).

[MrsMcD]

Carp,

You have a point.

As far as outward appearance, I don't look at the way Mennonite's live as man-made standards; I look at it as though it is their culture.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

Carp,

You have a point.

As far as outward appearance, I don't look at the way Mennonite's live as man-made standards; I look at it as though it is their culture.

I look it from the government side of standards, how they are policed, not consistant, different from church to church and region to region. How it is viewed with your position in the church. Who you are and what you offer.

I would for sure say the governing of standards and the way they are carried out is for sure man written.

Take away the hair, and pants. There I go again seeing that what is mostly talked about is on the woman.

Start listing standards: No... TV, Bowling, Sporting events. Opps that was the standard of holiness in the 1960-1970's.

Do you think those were man governed?

Get away from the term man made.

The nature of the standard is for sure legislated and Governed by man.

Otherwise we would not have 80% of the standards being a moving target.

Why did the UPCI open it's view on movie theatres for the "Passion of the Christ"?

It was OK to see it and it was "R" rated.

A standard is a standard and should not have been opened.

Many folks found themselves at the Theatre the following week seeing "Mission Impossible".

Opps that is a thought many of these standards are "Mission Impossible to Govern".

They will never show the intent of a heart or the spiritual content of a person's true character.

Standards is actually the easiest thing to hide behind.

Many folks are living in sin and look good.

With most ministers not flowing in any gifts these days they have no clue.

So if you go to a UPCI abide by the rules and you can then know that you are OK.

Nathan Eckstadt

[MrsMcD]

Why did the UPCI open it's view on movie theatres for the "Passion of the Christ"?

Our pastor (the one we had when the movie came out) did not allow his saints to go see the movie. In fact, for weeks he preached and preached about how we should not go see it because we do not support Hollywood.

I bet he rented it when it came out though.